I pray you join my religion

methylatedghosts · Post by **methylatedghosts** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:10 am

i will start to pray for alan, that you can experience some real improvement in his behavior and stability, and that you can in time visit a church who will minister to you in a way that resembles more closely the love and compassion of Christ, which is (despite your unfortunate experiences!) real and without limit

This was posted by pyrite in response to one of Confused's posts.

And it kinda got me to think.

I have no problem whatsoever with the first part about praying for health - thats great.

My thoughts are, that Christianity is about "spreading the love of Christ".

But also is it not about allowing people to choose for themselves.

Now, is it not also a part of Christianity, that believes that prayer is powerful enough to change someones health, or even their mind.

Is it therefore right for a Christian to pray that someone join their church or religion, if we take the points "allowing people to choose for themselves" and "that prayer works" as true?

Because, wouldn't this prayer cause a change in the persons mind so that it isn't of their own choice?

(Just to be sure, pyrite, I'm not saying that this is what you are praying for, but just that this is where my thoughts came from

)

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:10 pm

How about Zeus? Are you a skeptic when it comes to Augustus being the son of god and savour? Are you being negative?

pyrite · Post by **pyrite** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:12 pm

Galphanore wrote:
pyrite wrote:
Galphanore wrote:faith... is only useful in giving children the gullible attitude necessary to believe everything your parents tell you when you are young so that you can avoid danger, and religion has co-opted that to nefarious ends. If we replaced faith with critical thinking then our world would be considerably better.
if that's not a presumtuous, negative standpoint towards faith, as i defined in my last post (non-bold included!), i don't know what is
Faith is a concept, not a claim. Faith is belief without proof, skepticism is belief when evidence is provided. If, however, someone claims they have evidence for something and they believe it relies of faith to work then I will observe the evidence and see what is going on. Nothing that has ever been presented as requiring faith has yet to be shown to actually be verifiable.

redundant statement.. of course nothing that requires faith can be definitely verified! if it was definitely verified it wouldn't require faith. thats the nature of faith

Galphanore · Post by **Galphanore** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:13 pm

pyrite wrote:
Galphanore wrote:
pyrite wrote:
Galphanore wrote:faith... is only useful in giving children the gullible attitude necessary to believe everything your parents tell you when you are young so that you can avoid danger, and religion has co-opted that to nefarious ends. If we replaced faith with critical thinking then our world would be considerably better.
if that's not a presumtuous, negative standpoint towards faith, as i defined in my last post (non-bold included!), i don't know what is
Faith is a concept, not a claim. Faith is belief without proof, skepticism is belief when evidence is provided. If, however, someone claims they have evidence for something and they believe it relies of faith to work then I will observe the evidence and see what is going on. Nothing that has ever been presented as requiring faith has yet to be shown to actually be verifiable.
redundant statement.. of course nothing that requires faith can be definitely verified! if it was definitely verified it wouldn't require faith. thats the nature of faith

If something has an effect on the real world it can be verified, therefore, by your own statement, nothing that relies of faith can effect the real world.

pyrite · Post by **pyrite** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:13 pm

Cathar1950 wrote:How about Zeus? Are you a skeptic when it comes to Augustus being the son of god and savour? Are you being negative?

no, i'm being realistic

i havent seen zeus changing any lives for the better lately.. therefore i have no good reason to believe

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:16 pm

redundant statement.. of course nothing that requires faith can be definitely verified! if it was definitely verified it wouldn't require faith. thats the nature of faith

That is why I prefer faithfulness or trust as it is used in the Hebrew writings.
With your lack of skepticism it is a good thing fairies didn't get to you first.

Galphanore · Post by **Galphanore** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:17 pm

pyrite wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:How about Zeus? Are you a skeptic when it comes to Augustus being the son of god and savour? Are you being negative?
no, i'm being realistic i havent seen zeus changing any lives for the better lately.. therefore i have no good reason to believe

And I haven't seen Jesus changing anyones lives for the better recently either....therefore I have no good reason to believe.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:39 pm

pyrite wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:How about Zeus? Are you a skeptic when it comes to Augustus being the son of god and savour? Are you being negative?
no, i'm being realistic i havent seen zeus changing any lives for the better lately.. therefore i have no good reason to believe

I could argue reasonable that Zeus changed many lives. He was a model for depictions of YHWH and Jesus. Having babies with mortal women is another example I think was used by Christians among others of course. Didn't Zeus have some famous children? Apollo, they even named some things in the space program after him.
Augustus has a month named after him. The Sun and the sun god, it is a no brainer.
How can you deny and be so skeptical with all those changes and influences in lives and all of western civilization? I bet the commie atheist know about Zeus. You are so negative and faithless(in your definition, I was for trust and faithfulness). I personally like the idea of the real power of God being that of Persuasion not Cohersion(Whitehead).

pyrite · Post by **pyrite** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:40 pm

Cathar1950 wrote:
redundant statement.. of course nothing that requires faith can be definitely verified! if it was definitely verified it wouldn't require faith. thats the nature of faith
That is why I prefer faithfulness or trust as it is used in the Hebrew writings.
With your lack of skepticism it is a good thing fairies didn't get to you first.

no need to insult my intelligence.. just because i believe in God doesn't mean i'm a moron!
i would simply rather call myself a critic than a sceptic, as in my view a critic has a more balanced and open-minded viewpoint.. a sceptic, like it or not, will by definition assume the worst first about religion rather than taking a neutral initial stance. why not make an assumption-free, educated choice rather than one built on a negative premise

Galphanore · Post by **Galphanore** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:53 pm

pyrite wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
redundant statement.. of course nothing that requires faith can be definitely verified! if it was definitely verified it wouldn't require faith. thats the nature of faith
That is why I prefer faithfulness or trust as it is used in the Hebrew writings.
With your lack of skepticism it is a good thing fairies didn't get to you first.
no need to insult my intelligence.. just because i believe in God doesn't mean i'm a moron!
i would simply rather call myself a critic than a sceptic, as in my view a critic has a more balanced and open-minded viewpoint.. a sceptic, like it or not, will by definition assume the worst first about religion rather than taking a neutral initial stance. why not make an assumption-free, educated choice rather than one built on a negative premise

As I said, that is the spin that religion has placed upon skepticism, not what it actually is.

pyrite · Post by **pyrite** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:02 pm

Galphanore wrote:
pyrite wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
redundant statement.. of course nothing that requires faith can be definitely verified! if it was definitely verified it wouldn't require faith. thats the nature of faith
That is why I prefer faithfulness or trust as it is used in the Hebrew writings.
With your lack of skepticism it is a good thing fairies didn't get to you first.
no need to insult my intelligence.. just because i believe in God doesn't mean i'm a moron!
i would simply rather call myself a critic than a sceptic, as in my view a critic has a more balanced and open-minded viewpoint.. a sceptic, like it or not, will by definition assume the worst first about religion rather than taking a neutral initial stance. why not make an assumption-free, educated choice rather than one built on a negative premise
As I said, that is the spin that religion has placed upon skepticism, not what it actually is.

no, that's what it actually is. i see it on this forum every day!

Debating Christianity and Religion

I pray you join my religion

What would your prayer be?

I pray you join my religion

Re: I pray you join my religion

Re: I pray you join my religion