How is God not responsible for the harm caused by Satan?

[lostguest]

If God created Satan and was fully aware of the harm he wanted to cause to humanity, why would he allow him to exist, gave him "super powers" and let him loose first in the Garden of Eden and then in the world.
Here's an analogy: if a person owns a vicious dog and is fully aware of the animal's capacity to cause injury, shouldn't that person be directly responsible for any damage the animal causes if he fails to either restrain or destroy the animal. Now imagine what would anyone say if that same dog owner purposely released that dog in a room full of children and locked the doors and windows?
How is this example different from God and his vicious pet Satan?

[ttruscott]

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However you also have foreknowledge that this child is later going to be come a horrific child rapist, torturer and murderer.

God KNEW when he created Lucifer what Lucifer would become (far worse than the child rapist/torturer/murderer) but yet he created Lucifer anyway.

...

I think you have no idea whether I missed the point or not because my answer is given in post 3 and you seem to have missed it somehow:

Satan was created as ingenuously innocent as everyone else and I contend that GOD did not know who would chose what by their free will.

with a presentation of Bible theology to dispute the pagan Greek philosophy you are depending upon to make your claim in post 24.

in sum and in clear, I contend GOD DID NOT KNOW Lucifer would be evil before HE created HIM!

I contend that orthodoxy which accepts your claim that GOD foreknew Satan evil and end in hell but created HIM anyway, blasphemes GOD by holding it.

GOD's foreknowledge is of us after we self created our eternal relationship with HIM by our free will in sheol pre-earth, and HIS determination of our lives on earth refers to HIS giving HIS sinful elect lives perfectly arranged to bring them to repentance and the cross the easiest and most perfect way possible.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

...

Remember the bible tells us that when we are concieved he "knits us together in our mother's womb". (Psa 139:13 ) Thus every little defect is fully planned. Backed up by Exodus 4:11 and John 9: 1-3.

And remember my contention is that our conception on earth is NOT our creation which happened eons before in sheol where we, as ingenuous innocents, made our free will decision to rebel against God and become evil in HIS sight. As sinners enslaved to the addiction of evil we are sent to earth perfectly the way HE wanted to express our self chosen sinfulness at conception.

It also says that it is him that creates evil! (Isaiah 45:7) A clear reference to beings that are apparently born innocent, which later turn into monsters.

You have one verse that claims HE creates evil and I have a great many which claim HE would not, could not and therefore did not create evil. You depend upon a mistranslation of the KJV where the word evil is better translated calamity as many other Bibles have so used it.

I can provide the many verses that prove to believers that HE can do no evil with or without argument and discussion if asked.

Peace, Ted

[justforme]

[Replying to post 29 by OnceConvinced]

Try looking at why God created satin this way.
If it werent for satan, there we were not aware of bad.
But the purpose God created satan was to prove we can be tempted meaning,
WIth all our good deeds if it can be proven that we can be tempted and that proves we are not really good.
When God was tempted by satan in the desert, he was not tempted because He
had no bad in HIm.

Anyone who thinks they are good people, better take another look.at themselves because satan can bring out the bad in them.
God knew what what He was doing why He created satan.
Never question GOd again.

[OnceConvinced]

I think you have no idea whether I missed the point or not because my answer is given in post 3 and you seem to have missed it somehow:

Peace, Ted

Sorry I should not have included you in that coment about not getting my point. When I first read your post 27, I thought you were making a challenge to me, but now I see you were aiming it at justforme.

If God was ignorant then I agree that God cannot be held responsible for Lucifer as he was completely oblivious to the fact that he’d created a monster.

My issue is with Christians who believe God is all knowing about that sort of thing. Many Christians who believe God is omniscient seem to want to include knowledge of all that is going to happen. Not just certain things.

[OnceConvinced]

...

Remember the bible tells us that when we are concieved he "knits us together in our mother's womb". (Psa 139:13 ) Thus every little defect is fully planned. Backed up by Exodus 4:11 and John 9: 1-3.

And remember my contention is that our conception on earth is NOT our creation which happened eons before in sheol where we, as ingenuous innocents, made our free will decision to rebel against God and become evil in HIS sight. As sinners enslaved to the addiction of evil we are sent to earth perfectly the way HE wanted to express our self chosen sinfulness at conception.

That would contradict the above scriptures. You even seem to be disagreeing with Jesus himself.

It also says that it is him that creates evil! (Isaiah 45:7) A clear reference to beings that are apparently born innocent, which later turn into monsters.

You have one verse that claims HE creates evil and I have a great many which claim HE would not, could not and therefore did not create evil. You depend upon a mistranslation of the KJV where the word evil is better translated calamity as many other Bibles have so used it.

There are other scriptures as well, but really what is the point in firing backwards and fowards with contrary scriptures? It never gets anyone anywhere. If we can't get a properly translated version of the bible with the real interpretations (that can't be taken a hundred different ways) then it makes the bible pretty useless when it comes to debate.

I can provide the many verses that prove to believers that HE can do no evil with or without argument and discussion if asked.

Peace, Ted

One can find verses in the bible to argue any point one wants. Once again it makes using the bible as a tool for debate a fruitless exercise. I guess we should just avoid using scripture in debate completely and save all the problems. Save all the accusations of "you're taking it of context" and "that's not what it means" or "that's purely symbolic" or "you also need to look at another scripture".

It's like a game of cards really isn't it? I quote a scripture, you quote a contrary one and then claim to have trumped me. It's a big game alright.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 29 by OnceConvinced]

Try looking at why God created satin this way.

At least now you are admitting that God created a monster.

[Replying to post 29 by OnceConvinced]
If it werent for satan, there we were not aware of bad.

The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil was created for that purpose, wasn't it? He didn't need Satan for that. All that was required was for Adam and Eve to eat from the tree to have that knowledge of what is good and what is bad.

If God didn't want them to eat from that tree then he didn't want them to know about the differences between good and evil. Satan was actually working AGAINST God in this scenario, so if you say God intended Satan to tempt Eve, then you are illustrating a truly malevolent God who deliberately set humans up to fail, which as your Christian brother, Ted says would be blasphemous.

Anyway, we can figure out what is bad when innocent people are hurt due to bad acts. WE don't need Satan for that. Nor do we need a magical tree. To create such a hideous being is a malevolent thing. You're talking about a being who completely corrupted God's "perfect" creation. His works resulted in the fall of man. Satan's works are going to result in the majority of humans roasting in Hell for all eternity. How can you possibly see Satan's creation as being a benevolent act?

But the purpose God created satan was to prove we can be tempted meaning,
WIth all our good deeds if it can be proven that we can be tempted and that proves we are not really good.

So now you are illustrating here that God knowingly created a psychotic monster in an attempt to teach us things. That's a little like inviting a paedophile into your house and letting him have his way with your children and then claiming you were doing it just to teach them certain lessons in life. That would be truly sick. For God to unleash Satan upon the humans he supposedly loved it very sick and malevolent. I'm surprised you can't see that. Surly he could have achieved the same ends without the use of a paedophile like Satan?

When God was tempted by satan in the desert, he was not tempted because He
had no bad in HIm.

Which would be a surprise because Jesus had evil in him just like the rest of us. Just look at the way he unleashed his wrath and vandalised other people's property in the temple.

Really, if God created us humans as sinful creatures then he also has to take a certain amount of responsibility for that too. You don't get off scot free for creating a robot, programming it with free will and then not taking some amount of responsibility when it goes on a killing spree.

Anyone who thinks they are good people, better take another look.at themselves because satan can bring out the bad in them.
God knew what what He was doing why He created satan.

If God knew what he was doing when he created such a monster, then he is clearly malevolent. There are ways to teach people things without unleashing suffering on all of mankind.

I think you would be better off believing that God was ignorant. At least then God doesn't look like such a malevolent scum bag. He just looks incompetent instead.

Never question GOd again

I would never question God because I would be afraid he'd torture me for all eternity. However I will and SHOULD question claims made about God like you are making here. Your God seems like a very evil malevolent being to me. I am glad he is not real.

[ttruscott]

...

If God was ignorant then I agree that God cannot be held responsible for Lucifer as he was completely oblivious to the fact that he’d created a monster.

...

You still miss my thought though, GOD created every person ingenuously innocent with an equal ability to accept HIM as their GOD to fulfill HIS purpose of sharing the heaven state with HIM and HIS family church. Evil demonic monsters were self created aeons later by the free will choice of Satan et al.

That is, GOD created no monsters...but HE did allow the self creation of people into monsters by their free will.

Hmmm, an after thought: why does 'ignorant' sound so different from 'chose not to know?'

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

...

Remember the bible tells us that when we are concieved he "knits us together in our mother's womb". (Psa 139:13 ) Thus every little defect is fully planned. Backed up by Exodus 4:11 and John 9: 1-3.

And remember my contention is that our conception on earth is NOT our creation which happened eons before in sheol where we, as ingenuous innocents, made our free will decision to rebel against God and become evil in HIS sight. As sinners enslaved to the addiction of evil we are sent to earth perfectly the way HE wanted to express our self chosen sinfulness at conception.

That would contradict the above scriptures. You even seem to be disagreeing with Jesus himself.

In what way? They are all about our being born which I insist is not our creation...
Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. Possess is acquire - Strong's H7069 and reins is organs - Strong's H3629. Covered is - Strong's H5526, either to protect or to twine together.

Pretty clearly his conception and early growth, not his creation.

Exodus 4:11 The LORD said to him, "Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the LORD? Again, references to our bodies on earth, not our creation in sheol.

John 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?� 3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

"...who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
The Jews had no concept of the pre-conception existence of man but after a mere 2 years or so with Jesus they are asking what can only be interpreted as him being sinful before his birth.

How does it make sense that the disciples ask if the man was born blind due to his own sin if they did not believe in the pre-existence of the spirit/person able to sin before their birth on earth? Notice Jesus did not chastise them for making an error about their pre-birth existence ideas but only about the reason for his suffering.

He accepted their inference that he might have sinned pre-birth and was being punished but corrected them that this was not the case this time as he was born blind so Jesus could heal him, one of the miracles that the rabbi's taught that only the Messiah could perform.

So rather than contradicting PCE, Jesus Himself here supports it.

It also says that it is him that creates evil! (Isaiah 45:7) A clear reference to beings that are apparently born innocent, which later turn into monsters.

You have one verse that claims HE creates evil and I have a great many which claim HE would not, could not and therefore did not create evil. You depend upon a mistranslation of the KJV where the word evil is better translated calamity as many other Bibles have so used it.

There are other scriptures as well, but really what is the point in firing backwards and fowards with contrary scriptures? It never gets anyone anywhere. If we can't get a properly translated version of the bible with the real interpretations (that can't be taken a hundred different ways) then it makes the bible pretty useless when it comes to debate.

The point would be that the verses must be reconciled and usually the doctrine that has the least support is accepted, especially if it is just one verse.

As for translations, we do not put our faith in any translation at all but it is the promise of the Holy Spirit to teach us the proper interpretations of any translation. Everyone gets to choose the version they like to put their faith in and thus to prove where their faith lies.

I can provide the many verses that prove to believers that HE can do no evil with or without argument and discussion if asked.

Peace, Ted

One can find verses in the bible to argue any point one wants. Once again it makes using the bible as a tool for debate a fruitless exercise. I guess we should just avoid using scripture in debate completely and save all the problems. Save all the accusations of "you're taking it of context" and "that's not what it means" or "that's purely symbolic" or "you also need to look at another scripture".

It's like a game of cards really isn't it? I quote a scripture, you quote a contrary one and then claim to have trumped me. It's a big game alright.

I use such give and take as discussions which I find very helpful. I have never won such a discussion but I've learned a lot. You offer a verse and I suggest how it fits into my theology. I offer a verse and you suggest what you know and think about it...a discussion.

As for it being a useful debating tool, I have to agree while at the same time I find the debate format useless as a tool to discuss spiritual things.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

...

If God didn't want them to eat from that tree then he didn't want them to know about the differences between good and evil. Satan was actually working AGAINST God in this scenario, so if you say God intended Satan to tempt Eve, then you are illustrating a truly malevolent God who deliberately set humans up to fail, which as your Christian brother, Ted says would be blasphemous.

...

Actually you have my theology quite wrong on this part.

imo
1. Adam and Eve were sinful when HE moved them from sheol to the garden. They were naked, the same word used to describe the evil propensity of the serpent which is passed over due to the created on earth bias which demands them be innocent.

2. They rejected the appellation of being called sinful, probably claiming that what they did was right even if GOD didn't like it. Thus they were not ashamed.

3. GOD's job was to open their eyes to their sin and their inability to resist sinful temptation. He also wanted to drive a wedge between them and the serpent so HE set the serpent up to lure them into 'disobeying' the command not to eat, knowing that the serpent would beguile them and they would openly disobey, thus learning their true nature as sinful by having their eyes opened to their sin and becoming ashamed.

This was NOT their fall which means their first instance of sin but it was an expression of the sin they brought with them into the garden as proven by their eyes being opened to their nakedness which they had before they ate, and not to their eating.

Also eating of the tree is a symbol for any knowledge which opens our eyes to our sin and leads us to repentance.

So I contend that both the serpent and Adam and Eve were set up to have their sinfulness proven to them, that is, Adam and Eve, not to become sinful. I also contend that this is the only reason that people are born on earth at all...some to learn of their evil (eat of the tree and have their eyes opened) and repent like Adam and Eve and some to be bad examples like the serpent so that the repentant reject them as good neighbours and quit fighting against GOD's plan to call the judgment against them.

When taught that this was their first fall into becoming sinful and were actually innocent in the garden then it is indeed a blasphemy as a GOD of loving holiness could never treat them like that. But the blasphemy is not found in HIS intent for the serpent to show his true colours by tempting them or them to sin thus realizing their sinful state.

Peace, Ted

[justforme]

[Replying to post 35 by OnceConvinced]



Sorry I wasted my time speaking to God haters.
You dont realize that your words are coming from satan..

It hates God and that it is speaking through you.
You dont enen know its tricks.
God have mercy on your soul.