Zionists' claim to Palestine

[VermilionUK]

Not sure whether this is in the relevant forum - I thought it belonged more in the right and wrong, than the Jewish forum, but anyway:

If we consider the Jew's claim to Palestine - is it a justifiable claim that "it was their biblical homeland" in order to take Palestine? Or is this a wrong/unjust thing to do?
The Arabs have been in Palestine longer than the Jews had, haven't they? So how can - what is effectively a takeover - of Palestine by the Jews be justified through going back in the historic books of religion?
Should we kick out the Americans and give it back to the natives? Or kick out the English? Or even kick out those in Romania and give the land to the Gypsies?

Question for discussion: How can the religious claim for Palestine from the Zionists be justified/a valid claim?

My personal opinion is that it's completely unjustifiable. We can't just go around saying: "This book says that we lived here hundreds of years ago, so now we are taking it back" - we must consider that the Arabs have been there for hundreds of years, its not as if it was a recent Arab invasion that forced out the Jews.
Surely we can't be using religion to take over countries in the 20th\21st Century, can we? - But anyway, I'd be interested in hearing your views...

[Jayhawker Soule]

But the thing that troubles me is the dismissive attitude of Israel's actions against those it occupies.

That is an uninformed perspective and, in fact, an irresponsible distortion. Israel has sought repeatedly to compromise with its neighbors and every effort at compromise has served only to embolden terrorism much as every inch unilaterally vacated has served as terrorist infrastructure.

The only thing that stands in the way of Gaza becoming the San Diego of the Levant is the vitriolic scum serving as Palestinian leadership.

I don't see VirmilionUK's as an uninformed perspective so much as I see a seeking of some acknowledgement for those innocents involved.

And to assert/pretend an absence of acknowledgement is grossly uninformed and irresponsible. But, since he chooses to instruct Israel on how to act and feel, perhaps he might suggest how we should respond to Hamas & Hezbollah ...

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[VermilionUK]

But the thing that troubles me is the dismissive attitude of Israel's actions against those it occupies.

That is an uninformed perspective and, in fact, an irresponsible distortion. Israel has sought repeatedly to compromise with its neighbors and every effort at compromise has served only to embolden terrorism much as every inch unilaterally vacated has served as terrorist infrastructure.

The only thing that stands in the way of Gaza becoming the San Diego of the Levant is the vitriolic scum serving as Palestinian leadership.

I don't see VirmilionUK's as an uninformed perspective so much as I see a seeking of some acknowledgement for those innocents involved.

And to assert/pretend an absence of acknowledgement is grossly uninformed and irresponsible. But, since he chooses to instruct Israel on how to act and feel, perhaps he might suggest how we should respond to Hamas & Hezbollah ...

All I ask for is UN/international recognition that Israel has violated international law, and sanctions to take place as a result. For decades the PLO have been labelled as a terrorist organisation for killing children etc (and rightly so, some of their actions were vile) - but Israel have done equivalent actions, and yet nothing is done about it. Like I've said (multiple times) - I think the land should be handed over to the UN for control, but that's just my opinion.

And true, a picture is worth 1000 words - but a cartoon from a clearly anti-Arab artist is worth nothing. The same would be true if a similar cartoon was made, but from an anti-Israel artist.

Photos of real events are worth 1000 words.





That's a picture taken from inside a UN school in Gaza which was bombed by Israel - despite the UN giving Israel the coordinates of the school.

[Jayhawker Soule]

But the thing that troubles me is the dismissive attitude of Israel's actions against those it occupies.

That is an uninformed perspective and, in fact, an irresponsible distortion. Israel has sought repeatedly to compromise with its neighbors and every effort at compromise has served only to embolden terrorism much as every inch unilaterally vacated has served as terrorist infrastructure.

The only thing that stands in the way of Gaza becoming the San Diego of the Levant is the vitriolic scum serving as Palestinian leadership.

I don't see VirmilionUK's as an uninformed perspective so much as I see a seeking of some acknowledgement for those innocents involved.

And to assert/pretend an absence of acknowledgement is grossly uninformed and irresponsible. But, since he chooses to instruct Israel on how to act and feel, perhaps he might suggest how we should respond to Hamas & Hezbollah ...

All I ask for is UN/international recognition that Israel has violated international law, and sanctions to take place as a result.

I fully understand what and why.

[Jayhawker Soule]

But the thing that troubles me is the dismissive attitude of Israel's actions against those it occupies.

That is an uninformed perspective and, in fact, an irresponsible distortion. Israel has sought repeatedly to compromise with its neighbors and every effort at compromise has served only to embolden terrorism much as every inch unilaterally vacated has served as terrorist infrastructure.

The only thing that stands in the way of Gaza becoming the San Diego of the Levant is the vitriolic scum serving as Palestinian leadership.

I don't see VirmilionUK's as an uninformed perspective so much as I see a seeking of some acknowledgement for those innocents involved.

And to assert/pretend an absence of acknowledgement is grossly uninformed and irresponsible. But, since he chooses to instruct Israel on how to act and feel, perhaps he might suggest how we should respond to Hamas & Hezbollah ...

All I ask for is UN/international recognition that Israel has violated international law, and sanctions to take place as a result.

I know precisely what you want. Furthermore ...

And true, a picture is worth 1000 words - but a cartoon from a clearly anti-Arab artist is worth nothing.

... that you would characterize the artist as "anti-Arab" speaks volumes. I have zero respect for such bigotry.

[VermilionUK]

I know precisely what you want. Furthermore ...

If you are hinting that I want the destruction of Israel, then you are mistaken. I want people to be held accountable for their actions - the only way that can/will be done is if the UN steps in. The fact that neither side can live in peace suggests that a 2 state solution is likely to fail - and as such it seems the only way for peace to be secured is if the UN were to take over the area and govern those living there.

... that you would characterize the artist as "anti-Arab" speaks volumes. I have zero respect for such bigotry.

Well, what else would you call it? It's hardly neutral is it? It indicates that the Palestinians would hide behind children (there are cases of militia hiding out in hospitals/schools) - however, as events have shown us, both sides are guilty of similar acts involving children (such as Israeli bombing of schools).

Both sides are guilty of crimes - but it is the fact that people label the Palestinians as terrorists and such, yet sit in ignorance of Israel's complete disregard for civilian life.

It seems that whenever someone speaks out at Israel's actions, they are quickly hounded down and accused of wanting the death of Israel - but in my case, I want action taken against those who are responsible for violating international law; that goes for both Israel and the Palestinians.

[JoeyKnothead]

I know precisely what you want. Furthermore ...

If you are hinting that I want the destruction of Israel, then you are mistaken. I want people to be held accountable for their actions - the only way that can/will be done is if the UN steps in. The fact that neither side can live in peace suggests that a 2 state solution is likely to fail - and as such it seems the only way for peace to be secured is if the UN were to take over the area and govern those living there.

... that you would characterize the artist as "anti-Arab" speaks volumes. I have zero respect for such bigotry.

Well, what else would you call it? It's hardly neutral is it? It indicates that the Palestinians would hide behind children (there are cases of militia hiding out in hospitals/schools) - however, as events have shown us, both sides are guilty of similar acts involving children (such as Israeli bombing of schools).

Both sides are guilty of crimes - but it is the fact that people label the Palestinians as terrorists and such, yet sit in ignorance of Israel's complete disregard for civilian life.

It seems that whenever someone speaks out at Israel's actions, they are quickly hounded down and accused of wanting the death of Israel - but in my case, I want action taken against those who are responsible for violating international law; that goes for both Israel and the Palestinians.

Without commenting on specifics, count me in with VermilionUK here. I think both sides should be held accountable for any provable violations of the Geneva Conventions.

Keep in mind, I am a strong supporter of Israel's right to exist, I think Israel has * acted in a more proper fashion, and I also think Israel has one heckuva job ensuring its security. However, this should not absolve anyone from responsibility for provable war crimes. I'm not talking about those acts that are accidental, but where it can be proven the intent was to violate international law.

I'm also of a mind that if folks hide in amongst civilians, they can rightfully be targeted, and prosecuted for such actions.

*Edit in:

I think they've generally, mostly, etc. acted in a proper fashion. I personally can't comment on the school bombing or other acts that Israel is accused of. As a former military member I understand such issues as the "fog of war", and the confusion war can bring to individuals and groups. Thus my calls for provable claims before prosecution.

[Jayhawker Soule]

I know precisely what you want. Furthermore ...

If you are hinting that I want the destruction of Israel, then you are mistaken.

I am "hinting" that you serve as a Hamas apologist who casually distorts based on bias. If and when you learn to distinguish between a caricature of a terrorist and a caricature of "Arabs" in general we'll resume our discussion.

[JoeyKnothead]

I know precisely what you want. Furthermore ...

If you are hinting that I want the destruction of Israel, then you are mistaken.

I am "hinting" that you serve as a Hamas apologist who casually distorts based on bias. If and when you learn to distinguish between a caricature of a terrorist and a caricature of "Arabs" in general we'll resume our discussion.

The problem here then is in determining if Jayhawker Soule is himself an Israeli apologist. It is noted Jayhawker Soule is listed as Jewish, and a reasonable and logical conclusion can be made that he would support the Israelis - and rightfully so. My point is that we need to address the issues, and not the real or perceived allegiances involved.

IMHO it does no service to accuse one side of bias, especially when VermilionUK has been upfront about his position. He's blamed both sides, how can he possibly be an "Hamas apologist" if he's pointing the finger at his "own side"?

I ask Jayhawker Soule, is it your contention Israel can't possibly be committing illegal acts?

I'm not asking if they have, only if it's possible.

I make sure to remind folks I'm more on the Israeli side, and it is my contention they are more deserving of these lands, in that they have bent over backwards trying to gain peace. Further, I've yet to hear the Israelis avow the utter destruction of the Arab people, not just their nations, but would consider it highly probable they'd like to destroy Hamas, and godspeed for that.

[VermilionUK]

I know precisely what you want. Furthermore ...

If you are hinting that I want the destruction of Israel, then you are mistaken.

I am "hinting" that you serve as a Hamas apologist who casually distorts based on bias. If and when you learn to distinguish between a caricature of a terrorist and a caricature of "Arabs" in general we'll resume our discussion.

Wow, thats a big accusation you've made there. I've no interest in Hamas or any organisation for that matter, and I think it's somewhat rude of you to accuse me of being a "Hamas apologist".

I was using the term "Arab" as a broad term - I didn't have the intention to blanket tag people or show ignorance, so apologies if any confusion was caused.

I'm fully aware that Hamas have done some terrible things - but so has Israel.

Israel used phosphorus - that's against international law
Israel targetted a UN school, even though they were given coordinates of it by the UN - Israel has been spoken to about this, but as far as I'm aware, nothing has been done.

I think it's time we stopped living in ignorance and started to hold people accountable for their actions. The US should start withdraw it's aid (if it hasn't started to already) until Israel ceases it's actions. UN forces should step in to provide security, rather than let Israel continue its heavy handed retaliation.

[Jayhawker Soule]

I know precisely what you want. Furthermore ...

If you are hinting that I want the destruction of Israel, then you are mistaken.

I am "hinting" that you serve as a Hamas apologist who casually distorts based on bias. If and when you learn to distinguish between a caricature of a terrorist and a caricature of "Arabs" in general we'll resume our discussion.

Wow, thats a big accusation you've made there. I've no interest in Hamas or any organisation for that matter, and I think it's somewhat rude of you to accuse me of being a "Hamas apologist".

I was using the term "Arab" as a broad term ...

You certainly did - and you call me rude.