Zionists' claim to Palestine

[VermilionUK]

Not sure whether this is in the relevant forum - I thought it belonged more in the right and wrong, than the Jewish forum, but anyway:

If we consider the Jew's claim to Palestine - is it a justifiable claim that "it was their biblical homeland" in order to take Palestine? Or is this a wrong/unjust thing to do?
The Arabs have been in Palestine longer than the Jews had, haven't they? So how can - what is effectively a takeover - of Palestine by the Jews be justified through going back in the historic books of religion?
Should we kick out the Americans and give it back to the natives? Or kick out the English? Or even kick out those in Romania and give the land to the Gypsies?

Question for discussion: How can the religious claim for Palestine from the Zionists be justified/a valid claim?

My personal opinion is that it's completely unjustifiable. We can't just go around saying: "This book says that we lived here hundreds of years ago, so now we are taking it back" - we must consider that the Arabs have been there for hundreds of years, its not as if it was a recent Arab invasion that forced out the Jews.
Surely we can't be using religion to take over countries in the 20th\21st Century, can we? - But anyway, I'd be interested in hearing your views...

[Jonah]

vermilion,


Fair enough.

I think a lot of Jews and Palestinians are ahead of you. Sounds like the best thing is for you to support the negotiation for a two state solution. The problem of course is Hamas. It's a problem that the Abbas constituency nor the Sunni Arab states want. So. Why not get on the negotiation train?

Demographics are going to weigh heavily in what happens. The Palestinian birth rate is increasing and the Jewish is decreasing. There has to be a deal.

My concern is that the demonization of Israel, even while Israel makes progress with Abbas, is "disproportionate" to other conflicts in the world where abject genocide occurs. As an American, I will never tolerate one attempted moral argument for the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Has Israel taken out tens of thousands of civilians in total terrorist mode as the US? Yet, the political far left always wants Israel to be it's whipping boy. It has just become a doctrine of left wing politics. And I'm a Democrat...a conflicted one to be sure. Jews have a hard time going to peace and justice rallies anymore like in the '60s because the hate-Israel crowd is always there. As Bill Mahr said once, "The whole world hates the Jews".

It's kool-aid isn't it? Every country has its sins. But, really. Israel's surpasses the recent genocides in Eastern Europe and Africa? Really? How do you account for the disproportion of "concern"? Why is more time spent shining a light on Israel than Sudan? Why is there not abject concern for human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia?

The answer of course is what Bill Maher said. Anti-Jewish hatred is a standard product. Everybody needs a whipping boy.

So. What then? You want Israel to be there...or not? Do decide. Again, the demographics tell the story. If Jews do not increase their number in Israel substantially, they will simply be taken over by sheer numbers. Some Israeli experts say that it could well be the demographics rather than war that ends the modern state of Israel.

So. What then. Oh. You Europeans decided decades ago that you didn't like all these Jews among you. Close down Israel, where they gonna go? London, Paris, Rome, Berlin, and New York. By the millions...with substantial impact on the politics therewith. I hear you Brits aren't so happy with all the Muslims you have now. LOL. Should violins play? Wait til ya get a couple million Jews infused into the UK and then you can have the whole drama in your front yard, huh?

Dismantle or not to dismantle. Decisions...decisions. Be careful what ye ask for.....

[MagusYanam]

It's kool-aid isn't it? Every country has its sins. But, really. Israel's surpasses the recent genocides in Eastern Europe and Africa? Really? How do you account for the disproportion of "concern"? Why is more time spent shining a light on Israel than Sudan? Why is there not abject concern for human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia?

You don't really want to go down that road, do you? I don't think VermillionUK is the one daemonising Israel here. Israel is a democracy, an idealistic project set up by the original Zionists (who were peace-and-justice types) as a safe haven for persecuted peoples, and it is undergoing an existential crisis. It is not well-served by being compared - by Jews, the people who are supposed to be defending it! - to Sudan or Saudi Arabia. Of course we're going to hold Israel to a higher standard - we expect better of a country founded in such high hopes!

We don't want to have to treat Israel the same way we treat Sudan or Saudi Arabia, as a humanitarian crisis. And yet, we have within Israel this massive economic and political inequality wrapped up in ethnic/religious issues and backed up with a military machine to deal with, and it's causing problems throughout the region. What do you propose we, the nations of the West, do?

[Jonah]

It depends on which nations of the west you're talking about. The US backs Israel. Europe doens't. So, let's play 'what's up with dat?'

Truth is, anti-semitism has a firm house in both European culture, still, and the political left through out the west. And no less so, throuougt the far right throughout all the west. You've got this goofy Christian Zionism in America for socio-religious reasons particular to the US. Jews are conflicted about that. On one hand we know its hoakum, on the other hand we need help wherever we can get it. Foxman at the ADL will talk out of both sides of his mouth on that one.

Meanwhile, down at the ol' bargaining table, it's up to two semites to get their crap together so that the wack jobs in both their constituencies don't light the match to world war III.

The west and the moderate Arab states ought to support the Israeli-Abbas negotiations, and work to marginalize the nut jobs. Hamas needs to be taken down 14 pegs, and as Ariel Sharon had to conclude, the crazy religous zealot as military outpost settlement thang is a crock of #%&^. He was wrong, and in the end, he had to act on that fact.

I went to a zealot Jewish settlement on the West Bank. We got a speech. Our guide, a veteran of Israel's wars....muttered, "Our blood for your religious extremism."

So. Israel, as it is, ought to be given credit for its pluralistic politics on a future Palestinian state. Zionism can still be Zionism with qualifications such that a real politik toward stablizing the Middle East Region toward the creation of a Palestinian state is part of the Zionism. Western far left and right mudslinging toward Israel is just noise. What really counts is what happens at the bargaining table. Wasn't nuthin' happenin during the Bush years. Now, maybe there's a chance of getting somewhere again. Let's all go that way.

[VermilionUK]

It's kool-aid isn't it? Every country has its sins. But, really. Israel's surpasses the recent genocides in Eastern Europe and Africa? Really?

Sorry, which post or point are you referring to?

The answer of course is what Bill Maher said. Anti-Jewish hatred is a standard product. Everybody needs a whipping boy.

I'm far from "anti-jewish" (if that's what you were indicating), and I'm attending a speach at a local hall within the next two weeks from the "Friends of Israel" group - as I think it only serves us better if we increase our understanding of both sides of the conflict.

So. What then? You want Israel to be there...or not? Do decide.

Israel is a recognised state, the question of whether they should be there or not is - as I stated previously - a narrow question which I should not have posed. But I do want international/UN recognition of the actions taken by Israel and the Palestinian militant groups.

So. What then. Oh. You Europeans decided decades ago that you didn't like all these Jews among you.

Hey, I wasn't born when all this started. They were a people without land, and as goes for near enough every country in the world; they don't like immigration, but that's something I have no influence on.

Close down Israel, where they gonna go?

I didn't say close it down, I've been saying to hand it over to the UN to control. It seems that's probably one of the only ways to secure relative peace.

I hear you Brits aren't so happy with all the Muslims you have now. LOL. Should violins play? Wait til ya get a couple million Jews infused into the UK and then you can have the whole drama in your front yard, huh?

If you read into British news then you'll see that many Muslims want Sharia law introduced into the UK - which I can say without any shame I'd actively oppose. There was a recent trial of British Muslims who were plotting an attack which could of possibly been on-par with the tragic events of 9/11. There are some who actively incite hatred in Mosques to the younger generation of British Muslims. There are also Muslim protestors at towns where homecoming soldiers have a parade, with many banners stating "Death to those against Islam" or "Behead those who refuse Islam"

That is why we "aren't so happy with all the Muslims" (possibly the understatement of the month ). Of course, they are a minority, but they are a fast growing minority, who have a louder voice each and every day.

Dismantle or not to dismantle. Decisions...decisions. Be careful what ye ask for.....

I ask for international recognition of the crimes that have taken place from both sides, and possible UN control of the state - maybe it would be a good decision, maybe not - but I for one think its better than letting things carry on the way they are.

[Jonah]

Carry on as they are? No. Let the negotiators do their work.

I invite you audit the European air. Of course many European individuals will sincerely believe they are not anti-semitic, but the power of systems and collective conciousness....mob rule...always compels to exaggerate Israeli faults...and put them on a level playing field with Palestinian terrorism.

Who would trust the UN? The UN created the situation you now criticize.

I'm Irish, among other things. So. Did the N. Irish-Republic-UK thang get better by handing it over to the UN? Think about how long the history is on that conflict...longer than the Israeli-Palestinian. In the end, there's no substitute for the parties themselves doing the hard work of working it out themselves with help from other leading states. But, you can't just simply hand over your problems.

[VermilionUK]

Carry on as they are? No. Let the negotiators do their work.

I invite you audit the European air. Of course many European individuals will sincerely believe they are not anti-semitic, but the power of systems and collective conciousness....mob rule...always compels to exaggerate Israeli faults...and put them on a level playing field with Palestinian terrorism.

Who would trust the UN? The UN created the situation you now criticize.

I'm Irish, among other things. So. Did the N. Irish-Republic-UK thang get better by handing it over to the UN? Think about how long the history is on that conflict...longer than the Israeli-Palestinian. In the end, there's no substitute for the parties themselves doing the hard work of working it out themselves with help from other leading states. But, you can't just simply hand over your problems.

Yes, I see what you're saying - the UN have a very patchy track record with solving conflicts, but from the looks of things, it doesn't seem as though we're getting any closer to finding peace.

What has really changed since Rabin and Arafat meeting in 1993? Rockets are still fired into Israel, and Israel keeps hitting back, and civilians still die on both sides. I don't think they'll find peace unless there is a major step up in negotiations or international mediation. What form that "major step up" will be in, I don't know.
I guess it's the old: "somebody should do something" senario.