Questions for Atheists

[fonso]

Hello.

I don't know if this is the right forum for this message since atheism isn't a religion of any sort, so please feel free to move this post to where it's most appropriate.

I'd like to ask some questions to atheists out of curiousity.

- Does the fact that you do not believe in God, necessarily equate for you that there is no afterlife as well (after life, there is only non-existence)?

- In the absence of a deity who dishes out punishment and rewards the "good", has this, in any way, encouraged you to do any or some things that God-fearing people would not? (i.e. If I can get away with stealing someone's wife or money, it's ok cos I won't be penalized anyway) Please don't think that I think bad of atheists. I'm genuinely curious as to how an atheist thinks.

- Do some atheists who don't believe in God, still believe in a universal system of reward and retribution (like karma?), or does it follow that if you're an atheist, you do not believe in this?

Any other stuff you can tell me about yourself and your beliefs would be very appreciated. Thanks.

[ProfMoriarty]

Hi - I don't tend to think of myself as an 'atheist', but that does partially describe my view on things. I don't believe there are any gods, and I don't find any use for supernatural or mystical things either. I really can only put any trust in scientific explanations for the natural world and a rational way of living.

- Does the fact that you do not believe in God, necessarily equate for you that there is no afterlife as well (after life, there is only non-existence)?

So altogether that rather rules out an afterlife - although the idea has some appeal it is plainly impossible. But then again we now know that we really are all made of stardust, so who knows what the future holds for our molecules.

- In the absence of a deity who dishes out punishment and rewards the "good", has this, in any way, encouraged you to do any or some things that God-fearing people would not? (i.e. If I can get away with stealing someone's wife or money, it's ok cos I won't be penalized anyway) Please don't think that I think bad of atheists. I'm genuinely curious as to how an atheist thinks.

I really can't see how morals or ethics could be the sole property of religion, and it is becoming more evident that it is the religious morals that are seriously out of step with acceptable modern ethics, not the other way round. Like a lot of the other replies so far, I try to do the best I can both for myself and for those around me. I don't accept the deterministic idea that our morals are all based upon instinct or self-interest- rather I sincerely believe that good ethics are a mark of a civilised, rational and educated society and individual, and that includes whereever possible the eradication of racism, bigotry, etc (and religions are guilty of actually promoting some of those). Certainly I do not even understand the concept of only doing good or having good ethics for fear of punishment from a god - who in their right mind would want such a situation?

- Do some atheists who don't believe in God, still believe in a universal system of reward and retribution (like karma?), or does it follow that if you're an atheist, you do not believe in this?

I don't know - some might I suppose. I do believe that "you reap what you sow" has some truth to it, but not in any mystical sense. But on the other hand, I believe that even for us atheists there is still a place for "sacred" feelings - in our case this is the feeling of awe that you get when you consider the magnificence of the universe, or of some animal or plant, or when you hear a really wonderful piece of music or see an astounding piece of art. So don't suppose we are all dry as dust intellectuals. In many ways knowing that we are the result of billions of years of evolution both of the universe and the living world can be all rather overwhelming! That is far more satisfying than the thought of a reward for trite actions.

Any other stuff you can tell me about yourself and your beliefs would be very appreciated. Thanks.

I used to be a christian myself up until about 1984 - but I haven't believed in any of that for the last 20 years. I never bothered to give myself a label such as atheist, but earlier this year, through some friends I have on the internet, I came across the Brights movement, which is an umbrella movement for atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, freethinkers - basically anyone who has a naturalistic view of the world and doesn't believe in any supernatural or mystical concepts. That describes me pretty accurately, so I tend just to call myself a Bright if anyone asks what group I belong to.

I hope this helps you understand a bit more about how atheists view the world.

[chrispalasz]

Perspective wrote (in post #2):

As for me, my moral code is very much the golden rule. I NEVER do unto others that which I would not have them do unto me. The only thing that I have no problem doing that God-fearing people have issues with is taking the life of an unborn child. I know that I do not remember anything from when I was an unborn child. I did not have the sophistication to understand any of the complex issues/emotions that would have come with being aborted. Physical pain can be eliminated in an abortion or euthanasia - so there is nothing in my moral code that dictates that a fetus or even a very young already-born child deserves life unconditionally. Of course, for me, only in the most dire circumstances would I choose to end the life of one of my own children, but I could not look down upon any other person who felt they were making the tough decision in the best interest of the child.

Please do not percieve my questions to be an attack. I, truly, am also curious. A sincere response would be appreciated. I am not tryint to trap anyone.

1. So do you do what you feel should be done? Or is there some other basis for what you do?

2. What if there is no victim? What if your 18 year old daughter wants to bare your children? Do you think there is anything wrong with that?

3. If you were so inclined, would you proceed with beastiality? If you would not, why?

4. If you were married and there were another wed couple (man and woman, of course) living next door, do you think it would be okay, if all 4 of you consented, that you could trade wives for the night (for sex) and trade back another day?

5. What makes people do things that are bad? (e.g. mass killings)

6. Is there a reason for you as an athiest to intellectually conclude that there is no God? Or do you simply believe there is no God?

7. Do you have a presupposition that miracles cannot occur? If so, what is the basis for this?

8. All events have causes. What caused life? What caused the universe?

9. Do you believe that humans have purpose (in being alive)?

10. Do you believe there are no absolutes?

11. Are the laws of logic absolute?





Sorry there are so many questions. I used numbers so you wouldn't have to respond and copy/paste all quotes if you didn't want to. You can just put "Answer 1:" Thank you for giving me some of your insight!

[bernee51]

1. So do you do what you feel should be done? Or is there some other basis for what you do?

yes, I have a basic morals whic guide my actions. I also meditate.

2. What if there is no victim? What if your 18 year old daughter wants to bare your children? Do you think there is anything wrong with that?

There are many reasons why incest is not acceptable...religious prohibition is the least of those. By "no victim' is assume youy a referring to alleged 'sins' such as homosexuality. In that case, I believe it is the indiidual who should take responsibility for their actions.

3. If you were so inclined, would you proceed with beastiality? If you would not, why?

If i was so inclined I might very well.. I am not so inclined and personally find the practice to be distasteful.

4. If you were married and there were another wed couple (man and woman, of course) living next door, do you think it would be okay, if all 4 of you consented, that you could trade wives for the night (for sex) and trade back another day?

In th past I have done such a thing. I believe it reflected more on the strength of my relationship at the time. I would not do it now as I have a very strong relationship and find the joy in maintaining that to be paramount.

5. What makes people do things that are bad? (e.g. mass killings)

greed, insecurity, fear, need to control, attachment, and so on

6. Is there a reason for you as an athiest to intellectually conclude that there is no God? Or do you simply believe there is no God?

there is no evidence of the existence of any god. The JCI god is a myth.

7. Do you have a presupposition that miracles cannot occur? If so, what is the basis for this?

a miracle is defined as an action for which there is not natural explanation...i.e. it is supernatural. I see not such actions.

8. All events have causes. What caused life? What caused the universe?

what caused god?

9. Do you believe that humans have purpose (in being alive)?

other than to atempt to make things better for those who follow, no purpose whatsover

10. Do you believe there are no absolutes?

absolutely

11. Are the laws of logic absolute?

Is your god subject to logic or logic subject to your god?

[ST88]

1. So do you do what you feel should be done? Or is there some other basis for what you do?
It depends on the situation. Sometimes I feel like there is something that should be done, but because I usually have no business interfering in other people's lives for no other reason than to do "what needs to be done," I do not.

2. What if there is no victim? What if your 18 year old daughter wants to bare your children? Do you think there is anything wrong with that?
Incest is repulsive for many reasons. It is also illegal and, to me, indicative of a personality disorder. I recommend psychotherapy.

3. If you were so inclined, would you proceed with beastiality? If you would not, why?
I can't put myself in that mindset well enough to answer. I can tell you that as humans we have no idea what sort of transgression this might be on the animal. But, like pedophilia, it is the insidious assertion of a kind of authority over a weaker entity who will undoubtedly be harmed in some way by the encounter. Seeing as how the animal cannot solicit the encounter, it is the moral equivalent of rape.

4. If you were married and there were another wed couple (man and woman, of course) living next door, do you think it would be okay, if all 4 of you consented, that you could trade wives for the night (for sex) and trade back another day?
Assuming all members were willing and knew what they were getting into, then it would be OK. Adultery is not against the law. The problem usually comes in when one of the members did not quite understand the repercussions of such a situation beforehand. Assuming all members have a perfect metaphysical understanding of the situation and are still willing, then there's nothing wrong with it.

5. What makes people do things that are bad? (e.g. mass killings)
I would hazard a guess that most mass murderers are insane in the clinical sense. Either a chemical imbalance is involved or there is a fundamental disarrangement of the brain structure. As for hated leaders throughout history, I think there can be a disconnect between an idea of how the world should be and the means toward fulfilling that idea. Torquemada, for example, believed the world should be Christian, which, given the times, was not all that unpopular. However, his methods -- though justified to him -- were what we might call "bad." I don't know for certain, but I would guess that he believed his actions were "good" because they were done for a good cause, and how could movement towards an objective good be bad?

6. Is there a reason for you as an athiest to intellectually conclude that there is no God? Or do you simply believe there is no God?
Yes to both. Although the latter statement is closer to: I suspect that there is no God. Please note that I am not a strict Atheist in this sense. Intellectually, I do not see the need to take a position.

7. Do you have a presupposition that miracles cannot occur? If so, what is the basis for this?
Yes. Supernatural events require evidence beyond nature, which we can't perceive. The word "miracle" is thrown around a lot when people don't understand the connections and effects of natural and explainable phenomenae.

8. All events have causes. What caused life? What caused the universe?
I am comfortable with the idea that we don't know, and that we may never know. That there are postulates for such ideas is very interesting, and some seem likely. But I also do not discount the idea that at some point in the future we may find out.

9. Do you believe that humans have purpose (in being alive)?
If you mean an overarching purpose beyond our own humanity, then no. But individuals make their own purposes within it. Athiests/agnostics believe we only have this one life, so that makes it all the more precious to get done what we feel we need to get done.

10. Do you believe there are no absolutes?
Of course there are some absolutes. Mathematics and physics show us that there are.

11. Are the laws of logic absolute?
Insofar as they are independent of language.

[mrmufin]

1. So do you do what you feel should be done? Or is there some other basis for what you do?

I pretty much do what I do. The basis? None, really. The methodolgy? I strive for logical and mesaured; sometimes I hit, sometimes I miss.

2. What if there is no victim? What if your 18 year old daughter wants to bare your children? Do you think there is anything wrong with that?

The girl is going to get a big, fat, "NO!" because... I don't want any children. Heck, if the very lovely msmufin wanted to bear my children, she'd get the same answer!

3. If you were so inclined, would you proceed with beastiality? If you would not, why?

I can not fathom being aroused by nonhumans. But if I ever did find myself in that situation, it would be important that the nonhuman was also into it for something to happen. It's not like I'd be into raping the nonhuman(s) just 'cause they gets me all warm'n'fuzzy...

4. If you were married and there were another wed couple (man and woman, of course) living next door, do you think it would be okay, if all 4 of you consented, that you could trade wives for the night (for sex) and trade back another day?

Yeah, whatever.

5. What makes people do things that are bad? (e.g. mass killings)

I suspect that depends largely on the situation.

6. Is there a reason for you as an athiest to intellectually conclude that there is no God? Or do you simply believe there is no God?

Well, my conclusion is that the lack of clear and convincing evidence in favor of the gods is pretty much c onsistent with no gods at all. I have found a certain frugality of thought in not postulating the existence of things which don't appear to be there.

7. Do you have a presupposition that miracles cannot occur? If so, what is the basis for this?

I have no presupposition that miracles cannot occur, but trying to determine the boundary between miraculous and nonsensical can be very difficult.

8. All events have causes. What caused life? What caused the universe?

What makes you certain that all events are causal? I don't know what caused life. I don't know what caused the Universe. When I don't know something, I'm pretty good about making the admission.

9. Do you believe that humans have purpose (in being alive)?

On the broadest scale, I'd say the purpose is survival.

10. Do you believe there are no absolutes?

No.

11. Are the laws of logic absolute?

In theory, yes. In practice, nope. Logic is a tool of language which allows us to put boundaries on statements.

Regards,
mrmufin

[Jose]

1. So do you do what you feel should be done? Or is there some other basis for what you do?

I do what I do because it feels right to do it. If you were to ask me why it feels right, I'd have to conclude that my brain is wired that way--as are the brains of most people. As to why the brain is wired that way, I'd have to conclude that it's from years of natural selection, selecting for innate behaviors that favor the survival of related people, and as a consequence, the long-term survival of the group.

2. What if there is no victim? What if your 18 year old daughter wants to bare your children? Do you think there is anything wrong with that?

How could anyone with any knowledge of genetics think that this would be anything but a really dumb idea? Even chimpanzees know better...or, if they don't "know," at least they have an innate incest taboo.

3. If you were so inclined, would you proceed with beastiality? If you would not, why?

I am not so inclined. I don't know anyone who is.

4. If you were married and there were another wed couple (man and woman, of course) living next door, do you think it would be okay, if all 4 of you consented, that you could trade wives for the night (for sex) and trade back another day?

The key is complete, 100% consent. As it turns out, I have no such interest. The lovely MsJose has won me over completely.

5. What makes people do things that are bad? (e.g. mass killings)

In general, it seems to me to be a combination of two things. The first is complete faith in their leaders, and following like sheep, regardless of what the leaders tell them to do. This seems to be a significant aspect of human nature, that many of us are easily led. The second is the innate behavior of believing that "my group" is right, and others are not. In many tribes, this translates/translated into the belief that others are not really human. Again, there are clear selection pressures that would have led to this type of brain wiring by normal evolution. It seems to be this aspect of human nature that leads to fanatical devotion to a particular religion even when it advocates killing non-believers, whether you call the killing a Crusade or a jihad or the Conquest or Manifest Destiny. By having this gut-level, almost subconscious feeling that the "others" are not really human, people are able to rationalize that it's OK to wipe others out.

6. Is there a reason for you as an atheist to intellectually conclude that there is no God? Or do you simply believe there is no God?

I look at the world for information, and use that information to derive my conclusions. So far, I've seen no information that leads toward the existence of gods. The only indication that there is a god comes from people who tell me they know, and that the proof is in a book written by other people. This sounds a lot like buying a used car from someone I don't know, just because they say it's a good car. Besides, so many other people tell me that their god is the only real one. How can anyone decide among the millions of clamoring voices whose god is real, if any?

7. Do you have a presupposition that miracles cannot occur? If so, what is the basis for this?

It depends on what a "miracle" is. Lots of "miracles" turn out to be ordinary events, once they are analyzed fully. Others turn out to be more like urban legends. I have no presupposition that they can't occur--just the observation that they seem not to.

8. All events have causes. What caused life? What caused the universe?

Chemistry and physics.

9. Do you believe that humans have purpose (in being alive)?

I don't see any value in pretending that someone put me here for a "purpose" that I don't know about. Why wouldn't they tell me what it is, if it were so? I think the idea that someone else has a purpose for me would give me a good incentive to abdicate my real responsibility of deciding what my purpose in life should be. Everyone should be forced to be responsible for their own actions, and not fall back on some vague idea that someone else is going to reward them for not being bad. Come on, let's make up our minds ourselves and do some good in the world!

10. Do you believe there are no absolutes?

No. There are plenty of absolutes.

11. Are the laws of logic absolute?

I don't know the laws of logic. There is a branch of mathematics called logic, which probably has rules, if not laws, but I haven't taken that course, so I don't know if the laws are absolute. As for logical thinking, as might be used in trying to interpret data, I think it's pretty clear that different branches of science use different conventions. There are fundamental similarities, but "laws" like "the Scientific Method" are certainly not used universally. Different kinds of information require different kinds of analysis.

[chrispalasz]

Well, first, thank you all for your replies. I can see there are a variety of viewpoints. It gives me a better perspective of your beliefs.

I would like a expand on selected questions by each individual. I can understand (although, not agree with) your answers on many. If I do not mention those answers, it is because I understand.

Here are the ones I don't understand:

bernee51

1. So do you do what you feel should be done? Or is there some other basis for what you do?

yes, I have a basic morals whic guide my actions. I also meditate.

I guess I don't understand why you have morals. Why do you have morals?

2. What if there is no victim? What if your 18 year old daughter wants to bare your children? Do you think there is anything wrong with that?

There are many reasons why incest is not acceptable...religious prohibition is the least of those. By "no victim' is assume youy a referring to alleged 'sins' such as homosexuality. In that case, I believe it is the indiidual who should take responsibility for their actions.

I just don't really understand what you said. I wasn't talking about 'sins' such as homosexuality. I really did want to know the specific answer to the question that I asked.

6. Is there a reason for you as an athiest to intellectually conclude that there is no God? Or do you simply believe there is no God?

there is no evidence of the existence of any god.

This is fine if you want to believe it... but not having evidence for something does not disprove its existance. Wouldn't that make you agnostic - that you believe no evidence is conclusive either way? Or do you believe that there is evidence that concludes there is no God? Please explain.

8. All events have causes. What caused life? What caused the universe?

what caused god?

Well, my view is that nothing caused God - but that God is the uncaused being that started everything - that the Universe and then life began at a certain point in time, with God.

Will you please answer my question now that I have answered yours? If you do not believe that all events have causes, then please explain that (why).

10. Do you believe there are no absolutes?

absolutely

Are you just saying this because you think I am trying to trap you? Or do you really believe there are no absolutes? Obviously, as you have shown, believing there are no absolutes is an inherent contridiction of itself

11. Are the laws of logic absolute?

Is your god subject to logic or logic subject to your god?.

My answer to your question is that logic is subject to God. What is your answer to my question?

mrmufin

2. What if there is no victim? What if your 18 year old daughter wants to bare your children? Do you think there is anything wrong with that?

The girl is going to get a big, fat, "NO!" because... I don't want any children. Heck, if the very lovely msmufin wanted to bear my children, she'd get the same answer!

Okay. What about the second part? Do you think there is anyting wrong with that?

5. What makes people do things that are bad? (e.g. mass killings)

I suspect that depends largely on the situation.

Well, what about the situation in a mass killing? Or, pick an example and elaborate.

8. All events have causes. What caused life? What caused the universe?

What makes you certain that all events are causal? I don't know what caused life. I don't know what caused the Universe. When I don't know something, I'm pretty good about making the admission.

I do not believe that all events are causal because my view holds that God caused everything and is the single uncaused cause. But you do not believe in God. So I logically assumed that you believe all events have causes.

Whatever has the possibility of non existence, yet exists, has been caused to exist. Something cannot bring itself into existence since it must exist to bring itself into existence (which is illogical). There cannot be an infinite number of causes to bring something into existence. An infinite regression of causes ultimately has no initial cause which means there is no cause of existence. Since the universe exists, it must have a cause.

If you do not believe that all events have a cause... please explain.

Jose

3. If you were so inclined, would you proceed with beastiality? If you would not, why?

I am not so inclined. I don't know anyone who is.

Well, the question was, "if you were inclined". It's hypothetical and is secretly asking if you think it is wrong for somebody to do and what your reasoning is.

6. Is there a reason for you as an atheist to intellectually conclude that there is no God? Or do you simply believe there is no God?

I look at the world for information, and use that information to derive my conclusions. So far, I've seen no information that leads toward the existence of gods. The only indication that there is a god comes from people who tell me they know, and that the proof is in a book written by other people. This sounds a lot like buying a used car from someone I don't know, just because they say it's a good car. Besides, so many other people tell me that their god is the only real one. How can anyone decide among the millions of clamoring voices whose god is real, if any?

Well... I think a testimony is valid under circumstances when you're not sure of the answer yourself. As for the used car part... I can only speak for Christianity. Nobody is trying to sell you Christianity. It's free. Would you take a free used car if somebody told you it was great and it ran and that they drove it all the time and loved it? Apart from that, I would have to say (as I said to bernee51) that a lack of evidence does not disprove the existence of God. Being an Athiest is saying that you understand there to be no existance of God. I'm asking you if you simply believe this, or if you are sure.



And, that's all I have to say. Thanks everyone!

[mrmufin]

2. What if there is no victim? What if your 18 year old daughter wants to bare your children? Do you think there is anything wrong with that?

The girl is going to get a big, fat, "NO!" because... I don't want any children. Heck, if the very lovely msmufin wanted to bear my children, she'd get the same answer!

Okay. What about the second part? Do you think there is anyting wrong with that?

Yeah. There is a victim, or at least a significantly increased chance of being a victim: the child.

5. What makes people do things that are bad? (e.g. mass killings)

I suspect that depends largely on the situation.

Well, what about the situation in a mass killing? Or, pick an example and elaborate.

I don't think that there is a single motivating factor in mass killings. One mass killer might be having a Bad Day, another might target a specific type of individual, and another might just be on a mission from the gods.

8. All events have causes. What caused life? What caused the universe?

What makes you certain that all events are causal? I don't know what caused life. I don't know what caused the Universe. When I don't know something, I'm pretty good about making the admission.

I do not believe that all events are causal because my view holds that God caused everything and is the single uncaused cause. But you do not believe in God. So I logically assumed that you believe all events have causes.

What causes the steps in the thorium decay chain? The transistion of thorium-232 to lead-208 consists of ten events. What causes the ninth step to be either thallium-208 or polonium-212? Are those the tough decisions of the gods? Perhaps some events just happen without some specifically named cause. The problem with attributing all events to the gods and assigning the gods the capacity to affect outcomes is that the gods then become completely responsible. And in my humble opinion of justice, the gods have some 'splainin' to do: to the victims of hurricanes, to the children with epilepsy, and especially to the folks who develop cancer from radon exposure.

Something cannot bring itself into existence since it must exist to bring itself into existence (which is illogical).

Except for the gods? If one god could bring itself --and everything else-- into existence, why not many gods? Why stop at one? Why not twenty three gods? A googol of gods? The short supply of observational data of any of the gods kinda sorta sways me to seriously entertain the notion that they might not be there. At least we have a wealth of observational data of thorium decay...

Since the universe exists, it must have a cause.

Yeah, whatever, if you insist. But you've got a serious uphill battle to get me to buy into any particular cause. There are, and have been, a wide variety of cosmological models presented. How would one go about trying to select a particular model? I think the accuracy of the theory is contingent upon its consistency with the observational data. What could one conclude about causes --if anything-- from evaluating, say, the COBE data?

I think we should start by asking questions, not declaring answers. If I don't know the answer to a question, and "I don't know" is the honest answer, so be it. "I don't know" does not necessarily mean "It can't be known." Even so, I don't then proceed to conclude, "So it musta been the gods." To get from the framework that you presented to a specific cause for our known universe, and to give that cause a name, and attribute posthumous consequences to that same cause, and to further suggest that the cause has some personal interest in our behavior, to suggest that the cause has some selfish need for our reverence and obedience and that those needs are fulfilled by practicing a specific interpretation of a particular book is making quite a few assumptions, in my humble opinion.

For if that cause is equipped those capacities, it is logical to assume that the same cause should have the capacity to convince me, in a clear and unambiguous fashion, of its existence, consequences, and desired behavior. The testimony of the gods' field representatives rings unconvincing on my ears.

Regards,
mrmufin

[ST88]

Would you take a free used car if somebody told you it was great and it ran and that they drove it all the time and loved it? Apart from that, I would have to say (as I said to bernee51) that a lack of evidence does not disprove the existence of God.

Jose can answer for himself, but I just wanted to pick up on this. The free car that Christianity offers comes with some strings attached. Like only being able to make right-hand turns; the CD player will spit out most CDs; the hazard lights are always on; you need a tune-up more often; and the spedometer only goes up to 45mph despite having five gears (automatic, of course) and an overdrive button. And I think there's a carbon monoxide leak under the floorboards. I am agnostic about air conditioning, however.

[chrispalasz]

I see where you're taking the car deal, and I understand your perception there.

This is a common misperception. Christianity isn't arrogant,it isn't demanding, and it doesn't make life easier. God doesn't want anyone to fix themselves up and come to Him. He doesn't want people to come to Him to do good deeds. God wants everyone to come to Him where they are in life... no matter who they are. God doesn't need anyone... and nobody can do anything that is good if they do not know Him. Grace is free, with no catches and no strings attached.

Doing the good things that Christians do is not a requirement for Christians... it is a result of knowing God. Christians don't do good things because we should - we do them because we want to. God wants you to come to Him as the person you are - and when you get to know Him, you will desire to do these things. If you don't desire to do them... simply don't do them.