Questions for Atheists

[fonso]

Hello.

I don't know if this is the right forum for this message since atheism isn't a religion of any sort, so please feel free to move this post to where it's most appropriate.

I'd like to ask some questions to atheists out of curiousity.

- Does the fact that you do not believe in God, necessarily equate for you that there is no afterlife as well (after life, there is only non-existence)?

- In the absence of a deity who dishes out punishment and rewards the "good", has this, in any way, encouraged you to do any or some things that God-fearing people would not? (i.e. If I can get away with stealing someone's wife or money, it's ok cos I won't be penalized anyway) Please don't think that I think bad of atheists. I'm genuinely curious as to how an atheist thinks.

- Do some atheists who don't believe in God, still believe in a universal system of reward and retribution (like karma?), or does it follow that if you're an atheist, you do not believe in this?

Any other stuff you can tell me about yourself and your beliefs would be very appreciated. Thanks.

[TommyN]

My point is that we all worship something or some system of beliefs. You say you don't believe in a deity but actually your own mind is what you worship. Everyone's mind is formed by some kind of knowledge and a faith in those beliefs correct? One might say that all that exist are thoughts would you agree? We only experience this world in the mind which we understand through the eyes of some kind of knowledge. You actually feel, taste, see, hear, and smell with your mind not your body. Thoughts are invisible and not part of the material world but they exist. You can't see thoughts or touch them, but you see their fruit do you not? Your mind is the product of all your teachers combined. Scientist don't invent they simply study what is already their and has always been. This order that has always been is called the Truth. Scientist simply seek to explain it but they do so with limited understanding for their minds are purely physical oriented. Your body is only dust, no even less than dust. Actually we are made up of of elements in the form of molecules but then molecules are made up of atoms. Atoms are made up of electron, neutron, and protons. What are electrons, neutrons, and protons made up of and if they are made up of something what would that be made up of? Notice that the further you break things down the more movement or Life their is. We are all just fragmented pieces of something(or someone) whole and living. The God of Life. The very moment man is not able to physically witness something it has just become spiritual, which they then try to explain with theory. Then theory would be a belief in something out side the physical perception. So no matter what way you go you have to believe in something that you can not perceive with your physical senses. Ask yourself is your belief based on some other man's theory or perhaps even your own? Theory will never answer but will only give birth to more theory. The fact is Life is something precious because He is hidden (Holy) and must be sought after and either you are the one Life choose to reveal Himself through or one He uses to blind others. For God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and He hardens whom he will harden. Read the book of Romans chapter 9 for those of you who care to understand. Those whom He chooses are the Light (Truth bringers) to this world and only among darkness (blinded people) can we be the light. What do you belive life is? If life has no purpose then why is life important? Why should we care about others? Why should their be any laws? If we are only molecules, atoms, protons, neutrons, and electrons why is it that when we are faced with death we fight for life? What do you believe or better put what is your faith in? If you say you don't believe there is one Truth then what you are saying is that we are living in a relative world based purely on opinion. Wow. If this is true then all atheist simply live by a religion called escapism or better called entertainment. No wonder there is so much drug and alcohol abuse. No wonder there is suicide. No wonder there are so many hate groups. Yeshua said that man's heart would grow cold because of lawlessness (lack of teaching of the torah). No wonder Hitler was allowed to continue in his wickedness while the rest of the world just sat on their asses watching as he killed men, women and children. No wonder their is such a hate toward the Jew because they are God witness in this world. If atheist consider themselves to be so open minded then ask yourself why you are in such opposition to a belief in God? Or is it that your definition of open mindedness is freedom from your conscience? Think about it

[Wyvern]

My point is that we all worship something or some system of beliefs. You say you don't believe in a deity but actually your own mind is what you worship.

Not at all, all you are doing is strengthening my claim that you can not understand a framework outside of your own religious based one. Worship is not necessary and personally I don't understand the point of it. Plus for me it is that there is no actual evidence for a god, provide some real evidence and I will gladly acknowledge a deity.

Everyone's mind is formed by some kind of knowledge and a faith in those beliefs correct? One might say that all that exist are thoughts would you agree?

If you have knowledge you don't need faith, this goes to the core of the difficulties between science and religion. One could say that thought is the only thinng that exists but I wouldn't be the one to say that. After all if we can create this reality that we experience so flawlessly merely from our thoughts who needs god we are gods already.

We only experience this world in the mind which we understand through the eyes of some kind of knowledge. You actually feel, taste, see, hear, and smell with your mind not your body.

I don't know about you but all of my senses are processed by my brain, I can even tell you which portions of the brain that carries this out and the actual nerves which carry the signals to the brain.

Thoughts are invisible and not part of the material world but they exist. You can't see thoughts or touch them, but you see their fruit do you not?

Thoughts are produced from brain activity, hook someone up to an EEG and take an MRI at the same time and you can see that person thinking. Do the same thing while a person is not thinking of anything in particular and you see a different pattern of blood flow and electrical activity.

Your mind is the product of all your teachers combined.

Agreed as long as your definition of teacher is broad enough.

Your body is only dust, no even less than dust. Actually we are made up of of elements in the form of molecules but then molecules are made up of atoms. Atoms are made up of electron, neutron, and protons. What are electrons, neutrons, and protons made up of and if they are made up of something what would that be made up of? Notice that the further you break things down the more movement or Life their is. We are all just fragmented pieces of something(or someone) whole and living. The God of Life.

Simply because something moves does not mean it is alive. After all the fastest thing in the universe is light and it definately is not alive in fact it isn't even material.

The very moment man is not able to physically witness something it has just become spiritual, which they then try to explain with theory. Then theory would be a belief in something out side the physical perception. So no matter what way you go you have to believe in something that you can not perceive with your physical senses.

Not at all, theories are constructed on the shoulders of what is already known. If you accept the idea that we can know something about the universe and that it has certain underlying rules which it obeys then you can make a theory which fits the rules we know about and as knowledge increases we can then further tweak the theories. This is why science can make theories about the beginning and the end of the universe, the life cycles of stars etc. You should be thankful that this can be done otherwise we wouldn't be much more advanced than biblical times and both of us would be either dead or farmers and not have time for conversations such as this. Personally I would have died at the age of five from pneumonia.

Ask yourself is your belief based on some other man's theory or perhaps even your own? Theory will never answer but will only give birth to more theory.

Theories have and do answer many questions allow even more questions to be answered and in turn give rise to yet more questions based on the new understanding. Thankfully I see no end to the questions, many times they are more important than the answers themselves.

What do you belive life is? If life has no purpose then why is life important? Why should we care about others? Why should their be any laws?

There's a couple of threads on these forums regarding these subjects. Life is important because the only other option is death and noone knows what if anything happens then which is of course a big reason for the rise of religions, they ALL claim to know what happens after you die and all you have to do is do exactly what they tell you to do to be saved. We care about others because we are a social species and as it has been said no man is an island. Laws are in place to keep social order and to protect the less powerful from the more powerful.

If we are only molecules, atoms, protons, neutrons, and electrons why is it that when we are faced with death we fight for life?

Humans are instinctively afraid of the unknown and the greatest unknown is death.

What do you believe or better put what is your faith in? If you say you don't believe there is one Truth then what you are saying is that we are living in a relative world based purely on opinion.

Tell me of one moral truth that is universally held across all cultures throughout time.

If this is true then all atheist simply live by a religion called escapism or better called entertainment.

I'm not even an atheist and I know this is incorrect. Quite the opposite is how it really is, atheism shucks the idea that there is a comforting all pervasive entity which cares for you in a personal way and provides a nice place for you after you die, this is escapism. As opposed to atheism which says there is no god, probably nothing after you die so you had better make the most of what time you have because there is no do overs in life.

No wonder there is so much drug and alcohol abuse. No wonder there is suicide.

Actually the early church had to make an injunction against suicide, after all why not commit suicide if it gets you to heaven faster? Not to mention that other cultures at different times had a widely different view on suicide.

No wonder there are so many hate groups.

Many of them claiming allegiance to one religion or the other and in a number of cases actually claiming god commands them to perform hateful acts.

No wonder Hitler was allowed to continue in his wickedness while the rest of the world just sat on their asses watching as he killed men, women and children. No wonder their is such a hate toward the Jew because they are God witness in this world.

Neither Hitler nor Germany as a whole were atheistic at the time, quite the opposite. Most of the people that hate jews are islamic or christian, not atheist. In fact atheism to this day still is a very small minority of the worlds population.

If atheist consider themselves to be so open minded then ask yourself why you are in such opposition to a belief in God? Or is it that your definition of open mindedness is freedom from your conscience?

Atheism is not an opposition to a belief in god, if you want to by all means do so, just don't push your beliefs on others. This has been said way too many times on these forums but atheism is the lack of belief of a god. I don't really understand the last sentence, or is it you are merely trying to make the old argument that all morality comes from god so if you don't believe in god you must by definition be amoral.

[TommyN]

My point again is that we all believe in something and these beliefs in themselves are gods of our minds. Your beliefs govern you and are master over your body. You are right we are all partially gods for God is the Spirit of Life. The Truth is that we can be less of more of God. Life is God and without life there is no existence. The basest of morals are meant to give us a understanding and value of Life. How do we know what morals are? Whatever you don't like done to you and you do it to others that is sin and you are your own judge for Life made it that way. So no matter what you say Life does with us whatever Life sees fit to do with us and when Life is finished with us He puts us aside (we die)or He just takes us out of the world (we live forever). Might I say that it is a foolish belief that we have to die in order to know the God of Life. I already am walking in eternal Life for Life is eternal and is Truth. Your thoughts are temporary for when you are gone your thought (gods of your mind) will diminish although they might go on living in the minds of those whom you teach. You yourself said that you fear death and why shouldn't you? The God of Life made death a fearful thing and has not permitted us to study it (although many have tried) but as long as we have Life there is much information on the subject of Life. I wonder what the reason for this bias toward life is? So then there is only One God the God of Life and with out Him not one of your thoughts (gods) would even exist. Glory be to the God of gods The Father of Life and the teacher there of.

[Wyvern]

My point again is that we all believe in something and these beliefs in themselves are gods of our minds.

So in effect when you say you worship god you are actually saying you worship yourself. To extend this then god is simply the name you give to your mind.

Your beliefs govern you and are master over your body.

Personally my body is mostly self governing, I'm just hitching a ride

Life is God and without life there is no existence.

This definition of god is quite a bit different than most standards, given this as your definition of god it is nothing more than the gestalt of all living things and more so god could not exist until life came about. By your definition god could not be responsible for the creation of the universe because at the time there was no life and so god did not exist yet.

The basest of morals are meant to give us a understanding and value of Life. How do we know what morals are? Whatever you don't like done to you and you do it to others that is sin and you are your own judge for Life made it that way.

You even go further than I did, I stated morals are societal norms and as such are not universal. With this you say morals are entirely personal, otherwise all you are doing is rewriting the golden rule which nearly every current religion has a version of.

So no matter what you say Life does with us whatever Life sees fit to do with us and when Life is finished with us He puts us aside (we die)or He just takes us out of the world (we live forever).

So much like a child when god tires of us he either throws us away or puts us in his trophy case.

You yourself said that you fear death and why shouldn't you? The God of Life made death a fearful thing and has not permitted us to study it (although many have tried) but as long as we have Life there is much information on the subject of Life. I wonder what the reason for this bias toward life is? So then there is only One God the God of Life and with out Him not one of your thoughts (gods) would even exist.

Actually what I said is that humanity fears death not me personally. Many people study death and just like god have yet to find any evidence of an afterlife of any kind. As far as we know the dead very well may be trying to study life but are bumping into the same blocks we do, or even we might be the ones that are dead but since we are all dead there is noone around to tell us that we are dead. Once you get into metaphysics anything is possible and nothing can be disproved. Which means this all boils down to it being your oppinion and it is no more or less valid than anyone elses.

[TommyN]

Wyven said So in effect when you say you worship god you are actually saying you worship yourself. To extend this then god is simply the name you give to your mind.

Reply Well yes the Spirit of life reveals himself in Truth which is knowledge and knowledge permits us to see through the eyes of our teacher which is God. Ultimately Truth is the mind of God.



Wyvern said Personally my body is mostly self governing, I'm just hitching a ride

Reply So in your eyes the body is your god? So you do have a religion? Its just that your god gets tired, gets sick, and ultimately will pass away? And this is the god you teach your children?




Wyvern said This definition of god is quite a bit different than most standards, given this as your definition of god it is nothing more than the gestalt of all living things and more so god could not exist until life came about. By your definition god could not be responsible for the creation of the universe because at the time there was no life and so god did not exist yet.

Reply Right again, God is quite a bit different than what we have come to know of Him and the Eternal One is not finished with His revelation yet. The fact is that we were created to be the knowers of God. God has always Existed but He wasn’t God until we were created just as a dad cannot be called a dad until he has a child. Its true that God is Life He is Love, Peace and Joy these things are wholeness and that is why God is one so become one with Him. God is Spirit and has no body we are God’s bodies His’ sons and his daughters.


Wyvern said You even go further than I did, I stated morals are societal norms and as such are not universal. With this you say morals are entirely personal, otherwise all you are doing is rewriting the golden rule which nearly every current religion has a version of.

Reply No morals are a value of Life as a whole ( as One) not just as an individual but Life has put in you as an individual to know when you have been done wrong and hurt so that you also know what hurts others. As you have judged or forgiven others for the the hurt they caused you then you will receive the same in return. Don’t hurt others and you are hurt seek to forgive. The Truth is that you are not without faith but that your faith is just locked in the box of some incomplete knowledge. The Truth makes things one and whole. Life is wholeness which is eternal.

Wyvern said So much like a child when god tires of us he either throws us away or puts us in his trophy case.


Reply Is it childish to eat the food from a can and through the can in the trash and ultimately do away with it? God is Spirit and has no body and He deals with the spirits he has created and does away with the people who worship the body as god. You said yourself that you body was in charge and when your body is gone you are gone that is your ultimate truth for right now because as a man thinks within Himself so he is. I just want to say also that it is alright to be angry with God He even wants us to interact with Him this way this is how you act when we have a relationship with someone. Just talk to Him tell Him how it makes you feel. He will explain and you will hear Him and He will answer all things. I believe that what you are saying about your idea about God has been formed by what you have saw others do and it turned you off to the whole idea as anyone with any intelligence would do. God is not far from you and He will talk to you. Once you begin to ask and seek Him you won’t have to worry about what others are saying you will know for He will talk directly to you and you won’t have to deal with organized religion or some athoratative teacher but with God Himself.



Wyvern Actually what I said is that humanity fears death not me personally. Many people study death and just like god have yet to find any evidence of an afterlife of any kind. As far as we know the dead very well may be trying to study life but are bumping into the same blocks we do, or even we might be the ones that are dead but since we are all dead there is noone around to tell us that we are dead. Once you get into metaphysics anything is possible and nothing can be disproved. Which means this all boils down to it being your oppinion and it is no more or less valid than anyone elses.[/quote]


Reply See you said afterlife but I said Life right now. I don’t have to study death because I study and am concerned with Life, the Truth, and I won’t die. There are secrets that the world cannot know about. There are those who have walked with God (Life) and were taken from this planet and never died. Like you said we know that there is Life but we don’t know for sure if there is death. I believe and am completely concerned with Life always in the present, so can you prove to me that there is really death? Life cannot die only that which was never alive wants to return to its natural state which is and was ultimately nothing.

[Furrowed Brow]

- Does the fact that you do not believe in God, necessarily equate for you that there is no afterlife as well (after life, there is only non-existence)?

As an atheist, I also reject metaphysical realms, immaterial/material dualism, heaven, the supernatural etc. However logically speaking that does not rule out naturalistic explanations of alternative dimensions, or other physical possibilities yet to be understood.

The problem with dying is it is impossible to imagine oneself not existing. One can admit one will die, and that is it - I'm gone; but my imagination is limited to imagining the continual existence of my personality. I mean this in the same way the dragon cannot swallow its own tail. I cannot make myself completely disappear. That seems to me to be a truism. However logic dictates that the fact I cannot imagine not existing does not mean I shall not exist.

I therefore take the stance that when I die, I am gone. No afterlife. No more me. However if after dying some part of my personality turns up in another dimension then I'd be surprised, though I'd not call that place heaven, nor seek to explain its existence by way of God.

- In the absence of a deity who dishes out punishment and rewards the "good", has this, in any way, encouraged you to do any or some things that God-fearing people would not? (i.e. If I can get away with stealing someone's wife or money, it's ok cos I won't be penalized anyway) Please don't think that I think bad of atheists. I'm genuinely curious as to how an atheist thinks.

I don't think an atheist has committed any crime or behaved in any way any God fearing person has not.

Personally I try to lead a moral life. I don't steal, or embezzle, try to be as honest and open as I can. When a die I'd like the epitaph to say - Mostly Harmless, Rarely Noxious, Often Pleasant. However I guess I tend towards liberalism on issues such as abortion and homosexuality which would put be at odds with some Christians. Mostly I believe in turning the other cheek, because most times that is a reasonable and effective strategy; and I also like to see myself as being in control of a situation and myself. However, on some issues I think, under extreme conditions, I could be a very vengeful person and I do not have any moral qualms about that. The sort of thing is if someone harms a loved one. fortunately I've never been tested on that one.

Stealing someone elses wife? Hmm. Well. I would say that is wrong, and one should always try to act in such a way as not to harm others. Especially when kids are involved.

Do some atheists who don't believe in God, still believe in a universal system of reward and retribution (like karma?), or does it follow that if you're an atheist, you do not believe in this?

No universal reward system. However I belove that if one is self searching, tries to understand oneself, ones actions and behavior, and the same of others, this life is a far richer experience.

Any other stuff you can tell me about yourself and your beliefs would be very appreciated. Thanks.

I utterly reject taking any text/scripture as the ultimate truth or word of God. That is just bad methodology.

Atheism is not nihilism. I think to be an atheist requires an imagination, huge amounts of curiosity, and a critical eye. Some things I'd like to believe - such as an afterlife - but my critical faculties won't let me take that possibility too seriously. I think to be an atheist you have to be committed to methodology. viz., logic, evidence, rigour etc. I see this as opposites of faith, which demands a leap beyond the reach of rigour. As an atheist I am not wedded to any premise about the world, I am only wedded to striving for a rigorous methodology.

I have been involved in some topics here and have taken an atheist line. So it is possible to say I would say such and such because I am an atheist. However, I am particulary attracted to debates where some offence against logic or reason has been committed. If I am aware my own position is not fully resolved or a even irrational, then I fess up. So intellectual self honest also goes hand in hand with my atheism. Of course at times I might be talking rubbish and not know it - YET -, but then that is part of the project of learning.

At a deeper level again I'd say atheism is an aesthetic - suitable for people who prefer empty desert skies, minimalism, and simplicity. God is a complication we live without.