Freewill vs. Hell

[anontheist]

Freewill verses Hell,

I think this point is very interesting. If you have a Biblical perspective what do you think of this?

Consider this question for the moment, what is of more value, having freewill or the majority of humanity going to hell?

If it is having free will, then it seems that the majority of humanity will be going to hell. So, why is freewill important?

But what if all of humanity did not have a choice and were robotic servants of God? Because there would be no such thing as sin, we (all of humanity) would spend eternity in heaven, right?

Is it not true that sin is a product of freewill?

So, what is of more value and why?

Would it be of more value that all of humanity, every man, woman and child throughout history and all cultures should go to heaven for eternity?

Or...

Would it be of more value that most of humanity would be going to hell to suffer forever?

It seems reasonable and obvious to suggest that it is of more value that all of humanity spends eternity in heaven rather then most of humanity going to hell and suffering for an eternity.

If it is suggested that God wanted us to "freely" love him, then one can ask; why is that the case? Does God need us to love him? I would think that many believers would say no. But if God does not need us to love him, then whether we love him freely or not should not matter to God, since he does not need our love to begin with.

If God does not need our love, then whether I have freewill or not should not matter to God.

So, either God needs us to love him freely, which would mean God has a need. Therefore God is not perfect. (The assumption being; perfect beings do not have needs.)

Or…

God does not need us to love him freely, but has chosen to allow most of humanity to go to hell, which again, would suggest a lack of moral perfection.

So, which is it?

anon

[phoenixfire]

not many christians posting on this topic...

I wrestled with this for awihle also.

First, I think one needs to realize that God's highest goal is his own glory, not the happiness of his creatures. God has perfect judgement and values things perfectly, therefore he values himself most of all as he is the most glorious being in the universe.

The primary purpose of creating humans was to glorify himself. He knew full well that man would sin and need a redeemer, and by sacrificing his son as their redeemer he was committing the ultimate act of love - which in turn increased his glory. Those who respond in love to his sacrifice further increase his glory and will continue to glorify him forever in heaven.

God does of course love us and wants as many people as possible to be with him in heaven...and he enjoys the love shared between us. But just because he WANTS it does not mean he NEEDs it. But love is meaningless if it is not freely given.

As for everyone that ends up in hell, that was their choice (and what other punishment is just for rejecting a perfect God who sacrificed himself for you?) Romans 2 does make it clear that God judges everyone based to some degree on their ignorance of the gospel....but I do think that God contructed us in such a way so that everyone does have a choice. We all have a choice to help or hurt others, and we all have a choice to seek the truth or not. I think this is the distinction that determines who ends up in heaven. Anyone truly committed to finding the truth and who is willing to humble themselves before God and serve him instead of themselves will find themselves in heaven.

Furthermore, how does anyone know that the majority of mankind will end up in hell? For all we know there could be a million more years of history and trillions of humans before God ends the universe.

Additionally, if he would create humans to share his love and increase his glory, why not create other creatures also? I wouldn't be at all surprised if God created other humanlike races and spread them around the universe. We have Jesus and another world could have had Aslan.

[Bro Dave]

When you start off with a faulty premise, chances of reaching a correct, or even logical conclusion are slim to none.

Clearly we have free will. But not so clearly is there a "hell". So, wondering if your free will puts you in "danger" of going to hell is specious!

As has been argued innumerable time here on this debate site, there is no justifibale reason for hell to exist. (Unless you are trying to frighten someone into swallowing your dogma). Eternal punishment is simply a useless concept, and certainly beneath any God worth of our worship.

So, of what use is free will? It takes animal instinct based humans, and allows experiential growth from trial and error. It allows us to gather enough knowledge that we eventually gain wisdom, and eventually become spiritually focused. This is a path back to our Creator, and He shares with us the one thing He cannot experience without us; GROWTH! In return, we and He together share a wonderful infinitely long series of adventures on the path to our individual perfection.

And that beats the "HELL" out of eternal punishment!

Bro Dave

[McCulloch]

As has been argued innumerable time here on this debate site, there is no justifibale reason for hell to exist. (Unless you are trying to frighten someone into swallowing your dogma). Eternal punishment is simply a useless concept, and certainly beneath any God worth of our worship.

I have to whole-heartedly agree with you that "there is no justifiable reason for hell to exist", but I must have missed the point where the christians on this forum have come to a consensus, and have abandoned the concept of hell. Therefore, anontheist has a valid point. There is an obligation for those who still accept the dogma of eternal torment to answer his post. It is the job of those of us who reject the teachings of hell to point out the logical inconsistencies of those who try to defend it.

[AionOlam]

I recently read this email to and response from L. Ray Smith related to the question of Free will. The question is one I have seen frequently and thought this was an forum was an appropriate place to post it:

Hey there! I've really enjoyed reading what you have
> to say! And I'd say so far I've agreed with everything
> you have to say, and I think it's amazing how much
> what you have to say makes sense to me. But I have a
> question about free will, not to challenge or
> contradict you, but just to find out your answer.
> What I've always been told (and it's the best answer
> I've received) is that God wants us to love him, and
> because he wants us to love him. We have to have a
> choice. We have to choose to love him, otherwise we
> can't love him. Love without freedom isn't love. So
> if we don't have freewill as you say, then how can we
> ACTUALLY love God? Again, I'm not trying to challenge
> you, just trying to understand better, and receive
> answers. If you have answered this in your website,
> please direct me to where it is. Thank you very much
> for your time! God bless!
> --Tim


Dear Tim:

Actually I have answered this question many times. The carnal (natural
mind we are all born with), CAN'T love. In fact here is what God's
Word says regarding it: "Because the carnal mind is enmity [deep
seated hated] against God, for it is not subject to the law of God,
neither indeed is able" (Rom. 8:7). There it is. NO ONE can or does
love God with his natural mind.

But God can and does bring about changes to the carnal mind. Not to
all at the same time, but a FEW now, and the REST in the resurrection
to judgment.

When God brings us to repentance, and removes the carnal barriers to
true love, then all will love God. He doesn't FORCE them to do this;
they volunteer to do this. It will be THEIR CHOICE, but the choice is
not "free"--it HAD A CAUSE. And a "caused choice" is not a "free
choice." No one can understand what I am saying without the Spirit of
God. It is too high for their mind.

Why do you love your wife? Or your parents? Do they FORCE you to love
them? Well then, what MAKES you love them? Something MAKES you love
them? Do you love them WITHOUT A CAUSE? If anything (their love for
you, their generosity, their kindness, the concern for your every
need, etc., etc., etc) causes you to love them, then your choice was
not "FREE FROM CAUSALITY," but was actually MADE TO EXIST because OF these many, many causes.

God be with you,

Ray

If you notice, Ray also addresses the fact that God will save all of mankind, but a different times. Anyone interested in reading more "scripturally based" articles, can find them at www.bible-truths.com.

All His Blessings.

[Forge]

As has been argued innumerable time here on this debate site, there is no justifibale reason for hell to exist. (Unless you are trying to frighten someone into swallowing your dogma). Eternal punishment is simply a useless concept, and certainly beneath any God worth of our worship.

I don't know.

If someone, through his free will, elects to hate God and shun him (or tries to shun an omnipresent person), what happens to him? A God who would force a person who hates Him into eternally being with Him is a pretty... creepy God. I mean, if I hate God, being with him would be eternal punishment, wouldn't it?

More of less, I see Hell as God's "backup plan." He loves all people, but if they don't want 'im, God says "I will not impose myself upon you, my son/daughter. You may go where you wish." Which is what hell really is... the state of being disconnected from God and all that entails.

[bernee51]

Which is what hell really is... the state of being disconnected from God and all that entails.

In that case, seeing I do not believe in your god, not only not believe but deny the existence of such an entity (can't get much more disconnected than that), I and others like me, are in hell already.

I love my life, I am generally happy, I feel 'spiritually' fulfilled and centred - hell ain't such a bad place.

[Forge]

Have you shed your mortal coil yet?


Sorry that I wasn't completely clear there.

[Bro Dave]

As has been argued innumerable time here on this debate site, there is no justifiable reason for hell to exist. (Unless you are trying to frighten someone into swallowing your dogma). Eternal punishment is simply a useless concept, and certainly beneath any God worth of our worship.

Forge

I don't know.
If someone, through his free will, elects to hate God and shun him (or tries to shun an omnipresent person), what happens to him? A God who would force a person who hates Him into eternally being with Him is a pretty... creepy God. I mean, if I hate God, being with him would be eternal punishment, wouldn't it?

God is INFINITE; And a part of His infinitely is parental role as Father. There is nothing an infinitely loving God would not do to protect his children, whether they believe the hate Him, or even if they do not believe He exists. God created us to share in our growth towards “being perfect, even as He is perfect”. In sharing with us in that growth, God gets the one thing unavailable to him, since He has always been perfect, and therefore cannot experience growth. He has started us deep in imperfection. That was done on purpose to allow us the deepest growth possible. He does not hold our imperfections against us. After all, He has invited us on an infinite adventure with him, and we have only just begun!

More of less, I see Hell as God's "backup plan." He loves all people, but if they don't want 'im, God says "I will not impose myself upon you, my son/daughter. You may go where you wish." Which is what hell really is... the state of being disconnected from God and all that entails.

Yes, free will is the ultimate imperative; Even God Himself will not violate our right to choose. But we are too young to make any ultimate/infinite choices about our future. If after we have graduated this life, and have continued long enough in the Mansion World schools to understand that choice, we may indeed choose not to continue. In that case, we are allowed to be come as if we had never existed. That seems both fair and loving.

Bro Dave

[bernee51]

Have you shed your mortal coil yet?

Not since I last looked.

Sorry that I wasn't completely clear there.

you stated...

Which is what hell really is... the state of being disconnected from God and all that entails.

You said nothing about having to be dead to be 'disconnected from god'. And why should it make a difference whether I am dead and disconnected or alive and disconnected?

[Forge]

You said nothing about having to be dead to be 'disconnected from god'. And why should it make a difference whether I am dead and disconnected or alive and disconnected?

I would say that death is the "dividing line" because it is the culmination of our earthly existence. A good analogy would be a wide road, terminating at a fork. We can swerve to right side, or the left side, of the middle, but once we reach the fork, we must take the left or the right. And that fork would be death.


Oh, and if I'm coming off as an a-hole, uh, sorry. Sometimes I do that. No hard feelings.

God is INFINITE; And a part of His infinitely is parental role as Father. There is nothing an infinitely loving God would not do to protect his children, whether they believe the hate Him, or even if they do not believe He exists.

Oh, I agree, bro ( 8) ). However, God is a father, and a father can only nurture his child, not micro-manage him. If God really loves us as individuals, he would honor our choices.

God created us to share in our growth towards “being perfect, even as He is perfect”. In sharing with us in that growth, God gets the one thing unavailable to him, since He has always been perfect, and therefore cannot experience growth. He has started us deep in imperfection. That was done on purpose to allow us the deepest growth possible. He does not hold our imperfections against us. After all, He has invited us on an infinite adventure with him, and we have only just begun!

Certainly he does not hold our imperfections against us, since those are beyond our control... but he will judge our actions, and what we have made of our lives.

Yes, we must grow, but we cannot grow for infinity. We must make the final choice.

Yes, free will is the ultimate imperative; Even God Himself will not violate our right to choose. But we are too young to make any ultimate/infinite choices about our future. If after we have graduated this life, and have continued long enough in the Mansion World schools to understand that choice, we may indeed choose not to continue. In that case, we are allowed to be come as if we had never existed. That seems both fair and loving.

Is this how God treats us? If we don't match up to him and his standards we go *poof* and billow away into nothingness? This would seem like God treats people as means, not ends.

Ditto with Bernee, Dave. I sometimes sound hostile, so don't think I am hostile.