Freewill vs. Hell

[anontheist]

Freewill verses Hell,

I think this point is very interesting. If you have a Biblical perspective what do you think of this?

Consider this question for the moment, what is of more value, having freewill or the majority of humanity going to hell?

If it is having free will, then it seems that the majority of humanity will be going to hell. So, why is freewill important?

But what if all of humanity did not have a choice and were robotic servants of God? Because there would be no such thing as sin, we (all of humanity) would spend eternity in heaven, right?

Is it not true that sin is a product of freewill?

So, what is of more value and why?

Would it be of more value that all of humanity, every man, woman and child throughout history and all cultures should go to heaven for eternity?

Or...

Would it be of more value that most of humanity would be going to hell to suffer forever?

It seems reasonable and obvious to suggest that it is of more value that all of humanity spends eternity in heaven rather then most of humanity going to hell and suffering for an eternity.

If it is suggested that God wanted us to "freely" love him, then one can ask; why is that the case? Does God need us to love him? I would think that many believers would say no. But if God does not need us to love him, then whether we love him freely or not should not matter to God, since he does not need our love to begin with.

If God does not need our love, then whether I have freewill or not should not matter to God.

So, either God needs us to love him freely, which would mean God has a need. Therefore God is not perfect. (The assumption being; perfect beings do not have needs.)

Or…

God does not need us to love him freely, but has chosen to allow most of humanity to go to hell, which again, would suggest a lack of moral perfection.

So, which is it?

anon

[Bro Dave]

Forge:
Is this how God treats us? If we don't match up to him and his standards we go *poof* and billow away into nothingness? This would seem like God treats people as means, not ends.

How much fairer could you ask for? God creates unique children, and gives them free will choices. Then He lives within them, "closer than youir breath", guiding them when they ask. And, finally, if the child comes to understand that God loves him, and wants to share eternity with him, but the child would rather not, what could be kinder than to honor that choice? That just does not seem like userary to me...

Bro Dave

[Forge]

Then I shall explain.

If God honored us as people, he would eternal bother our human eternal life and our choice to leave him. If that person, fully knowing what eternal separation meant, decides to spend eternity from God, I think God would honor his choice as a human being. This is my interpretation of "God treats us as ends."

Now, yours. Basically, it sounds like God wants people only to follow his will, and damn all other choices. "You don't want me... fine... you're defective... game over!" It seems here God gives more importance to the person's alignment rather than his personal decisions.

It's hard to explain this, so ask away.


And, by the way Dave, you bear an uncanny resemblance to a Catholic priest that I know. Weird, huh? 8)

[bernee51]

I would say that death is the "dividing line" because it is the culmination of our earthly existence.

In your belief system - others may believe differently - they might replace 'our' with 'this'.

Parts of me I am certain will survive death - that which is in the geosphere.

A good analogy would be a wide road, terminating at a fork. We can swerve to right side, or the left side, of the middle, but once we reach the fork, we must take the left or the right. And that fork would be death.

I still don't see how I can be any more disconnected from god after death as I am now.

But as they say - when you come to a folk in the road - take it.

Oh, and if I'm coming off as an a-hole, uh, sorry. Sometimes I do that. No hard feelings.

Not at all...but is that a knife you are holding or are you just pleased to see me.

[Bro Dave]

Then I shall explain.

If God honored us as people, he would eternal bother our human eternal life and our choice to leave him. If that person, fully knowing what eternal separation meant, decides to spend eternity from God, I think God would honor his choice as a human being. This is my interpretation of "God treats us as ends."

Now, yours. Basically, it sounds like God wants people only to follow his will, and damn all other choices. "You don't want me... fine... you're defective... game over!" It seems here God gives more importance to the person's alignment rather than his personal decisions.

It's hard to explain this, so ask away.


And, by the way Dave, you bear an uncanny resemblance to a Catholic priest that I know. Weird, huh? 8)

Forge, there is only one Absolute Reality; God. That means we either move towards God, and true reality, or we move away towards becoming unreal. God holds out his hand every step of the way, offering to help us as we are willing to be helped. Never does God give up on us. It is only in the extreme last throws of our becoming totally unreal that we are >allowed< to be come as though we never were. This is not a sentence passed out by God, but one imposed by the person. Even Lucifer was offered rehabilitation up to the last possible moment where he made his final decision.

Does that make more sense?

About the Priest thingy… I just KNEW I looked like SOMEONE, funny it turns out to be a “Father”, just not mine! LOL

Bro Dave

[AionOlam]

Anon wrote:

I thought that it was interesting that some Christians (on other boards) have suggested that we do not have freewill. That in fact freewill is an illusion.

We do not have freewill. We can make choices but we do not create these choices. Ask yourself if you had the free will to choose:

Your parents
Your appearance
Where you live
Your intellect
Your beliefs

And so on…

Every choice you make is influenced by your circumstances and how you perceive these circumstances affect you. The same set of circumstances can affect everyone differently, based upon other circumstances, and so on. In essence you are reacting to what has been presented to you not something you caused.

Jesus’ sacrifice would not have been necessary if we did not have freewill. And according to Calvin, we don’t.

Jesus’ sacrifice was planned from the foundation of the world. He is the doorway through which we must go to be cleansed so that we can be in God’s presence.

Yet what is being suggested is:

1. We either have freewill or we don’t.

We do not as I explained above.

2. If we do not have freewill, then God could create us in such a way that we do what God wants. All of humanity would go to heaven.

God did create us in the way He wants. He is the molder and we are his clay. As our Father, He wants to teach us (as any normal human parent does with their children) the difference between good and evil, so we can continue to grow in His image. Because of the different ways we are molded for His plan, some of us will have to be reworked more than others but the end result will be the same for all.

3. If we do have freewill, most of humanity will go to hell.

Not true, God will save all of us, but each in His own order.

4. If most of humanity will go to hell, then most of humanity will suffer for eternity.

Again, not true. The punishment we receive either now and/or at the Final Judgment is of a corrective nature to refine us and purge the dross.

5. Either most of humanity will suffer for eternity or all of humanity could go to heaven.

The Hebrew word “olam” and the Greek words “aion” and “aionious” are incorrectly translated as eternal, forever and ever, everlasting… People of OT and NT times did not have a word by itself that had those meanings. They had to put words together to render that meaning (i.e. without end, never ending). The words correctly translated actually are trying to convey the meaning of an unknown or varying length of time. Jonah used the word “olam” when he was in the belly of the whale – was he there “forever”? It may have seemed like it would be never ending but it was actually 3 days. There is other scripture that speaks of a slave’s service to his master being “olam.” When one or the other died, that service would end.
A well researched document on this subject can be found by going to this link:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

6. If humanity did not have freewill, all of humanity could go to heaven.

This is a true statement. God desires it, He wills it and who can thwart His will?

7. Calvin’s predestination doctrine suggests we do not have freewill.

Yes that is correct.

8. Most of humanity is going to hell.

Wrong – not even Satan, his demons, Saddam, Hitler will suffer forever. God will turn all back to Him.

So, how is this just?

God created everything: you, me, Satan, good, evil etc… and everything God created He said “it is good.” We are all His children but because we are carnal (of the earth) we cannot choose anything but sin. There is no one, not one who is seeking God.

Jesus predicted what would happen when He died: “And I, if I be lifted up, will draw (literal translation should be “drag”) ALL men to me.” John 12:32

Jesus came to do the will of the Father and that will was that Jesus was given the power over all flesh and He was to be the propitiation for our sins. (Propitiate = to soothe to win over.)

I keep reading on these posts about “no free will” being equated to being forced by God. God is love. Can you be forced to love anyone or anything? No – that feeling is created by circumstance. Do you think our Creator hasn’t the power to win us over through His unceasing love? I have no doubt that He can and He will create those circumstances.

[Forge]

Parts of me I am certain will survive death - that which is in the geosphere.

Hmm...
I'm not quite sure, but do you mean your fundamental physical components?

I still don't see how I can be any more disconnected from god after death as I am now.

Not more disconnected. This is hard to explain.

Take an example, a test. You can have a wrong answer up till 1 second before the test ends, and it won't wreally matter. But as soon as the bell dings, that wrong answer counts.
(Not to say you're a wrong guy, but just an analogy)

Not at all...but is that a knife you are holding or are you just pleased to see me.

I hate everyone equally 8)

Forge, there is only one Absolute Reality; God. That means we either move towards God, and true reality, or we move away towards becoming unreal.

Hmmm...
I haven't encountered this idea much before, except in Eastern Pantheism.

God holds out his hand every step of the way, offering to help us as we are willing to be helped. Never does God give up on us. It is only in the extreme last throws of our becoming totally unreal that we are >allowed< to be come as though we never were. This is not a sentence passed out by God, but one imposed by the person. Even Lucifer was offered rehabilitation up to the last possible moment where he made his final decision.

Does that make more sense?

Sorry. I'm a bit thrown off when it comes to God = reality. Yes, God is real, but I don't think he's reality personified. I think it comes too close to pantheism.

About the Priest thingy… I just KNEW I looked like SOMEONE, funny it turns out to be a “Father”, just not mine! LOL

Hmm...
You don't happen to have "Jim" somewhere in your name, do you?

[Bro Dave]

God holds out his hand every step of the way, offering to help us as we are willing to be helped. Never does God give up on us. It is only in the extreme last throws of our becoming totally unreal that we are >allowed< to be come as though we never were. This is not a sentence passed out by God, but one imposed by the person. Even Lucifer was offered rehabilitation up to the last possible moment where he made his final decision.

Does that make more sense?

Sorry. I'm a bit thrown off when it comes to God = reality. Yes, God is real, but I don't think he's reality personified. I think it comes too close to pantheism.

I think you have the telescope pointing the wrong way… I was not talking about our material reality, or that which our senses report as “real”. I was referring to that which remains after all that was created no longer exists. i.e. the First Source and Center, aka First Cause.

About the Priest thingy… I just KNEW I looked like SOMEONE, funny it turns out to be a “Father”, just not mine! LOL

Hmm...
You don't happen to have "Jim" somewhere in your name, do you?

Sorry, no…

Bro Dave