Zionists' claim to Palestine

[VermilionUK]

Not sure whether this is in the relevant forum - I thought it belonged more in the right and wrong, than the Jewish forum, but anyway:

If we consider the Jew's claim to Palestine - is it a justifiable claim that "it was their biblical homeland" in order to take Palestine? Or is this a wrong/unjust thing to do?
The Arabs have been in Palestine longer than the Jews had, haven't they? So how can - what is effectively a takeover - of Palestine by the Jews be justified through going back in the historic books of religion?
Should we kick out the Americans and give it back to the natives? Or kick out the English? Or even kick out those in Romania and give the land to the Gypsies?

Question for discussion: How can the religious claim for Palestine from the Zionists be justified/a valid claim?

My personal opinion is that it's completely unjustifiable. We can't just go around saying: "This book says that we lived here hundreds of years ago, so now we are taking it back" - we must consider that the Arabs have been there for hundreds of years, its not as if it was a recent Arab invasion that forced out the Jews.
Surely we can't be using religion to take over countries in the 20th\21st Century, can we? - But anyway, I'd be interested in hearing your views...

[VermilionUK]

I'm bowing out of this conversation. This seems to be all a game to you--from what I gather, you've never been to Israel and you don't have any stake in the Middle East. It seems to me that this is just a class you're taking--and the implications of plugging Israel's demise have no meaning to you. You can point your finger and sit in judgment over Israel's right to exist without troubling over the consequences.

One thing I do know: the lack of compromise that your posts embody, should it become the norm world-wide, spells disaster for both Israelis and Palestinians.

OK - fair enough, you've every right to withdraw

However, on the issue of my posts - I reject your opinion of it being "all game" to me. Yes, I've never been to Israel and I don't have any stake in the Middle-East, but that does not remove my right to speak out on the issue. The point of "You've never been there so you don't understand" , or similar arguments, is irrelevant - I know the difference between right and wrong.

Due to the fact that I don't have any ties to either side has allowed me an unbiased look at the facts of the conflict. I think that the Palestinians have done some vile things (hiding in schools and using ambulances to transport their militiants) - however, when we see Israel openly ignoring UN laws and pleads to not attack schools (which were marked as UN) it shows a complete disregard for civilian life, and coupled with the fact that they are largely funded by the US - who know what they are doing, it a complete disgrace.

You can point your finger and sit in judgment over Israel's right to exist without troubling over the consequences.

And yet you do the same - you want a two sided state when you KNOW that Israel has already violated the law of occupation by with-holding water and medical supplies to the Palestinians, so the issue would only be worse. Like I've said, a UN controlled state would be more likely to restore peace.

One thing I do know: the lack of compromise that your posts embody, should it become the norm world-wide, spells disaster for both Israelis and Palestinians.

Well, there should be no compromise - the land should not have been given to Israel anyway. In any case, Israel have levelled whole Palestinian towns and forced their occupants to flee - is that compromise either?
If someone sat in your house, and said "lets compromise - I'll have the upstairs, you can have the living room" would you want that compromise? I doubt it.

With all due respect - it seems as though the reason why you're "bowing out" of the conversation is that you cannot justify Israel's actions regarding the occupation of Palestinian territory and wish not to face those facts that it's simply wrong - and when faced with the question to justify it, have no option but to "bow out" or concede that Israel's actions resemble those of utter disgrace and illegality.

[tatty]

The reason the Israelis began their mass migrations (aliyah's) to Israel is because they had nowhere else to go. Jews were being persecuted everywhere, not just in Nazi Germany. I agree that ever since the end of the British Mandate the fighting and violence has escalated far beyond any ones expectations, however it is understandable why the Zionists moved. Its not a takeover. It was a mass migration that shifted the population ratio of the area resulting in the UN giving each nation part of the land, and it was the Palestinians who refused to share- given it's not fair to have to loose some of your land- it was the UN that made the decision, not the Zionists (though of course they wanted it)
The conflict isn't a fight over land anymore, its a fight over Jerusalem.

[JoeyKnothead]

The reason the Israelis began their mass migrations (aliyah's) to Israel is because they had nowhere else to go. Jews were being persecuted everywhere, not just in Nazi Germany. I agree that ever since the end of the British Mandate the fighting and violence has escalated far beyond any ones expectations, however it is understandable why the Zionists moved. Its not a takeover. It was a mass migration that shifted the population ratio of the area resulting in the UN giving each nation part of the land, and it was the Palestinians who refused to share- given it's not fair to have to loose some of your land- it was the UN that made the decision, not the Zionists (though of course they wanted it)
The conflict isn't a fight over land anymore, its a fight over Jerusalem.

Good analysis. Count me in with this'n.

I look at the issue in the "grander scheme" and wonder what happens if Israel is to cede even the least. I think of what I saw on 9/11 when the Palestinians were celebrating in the streets. Arafat said at the time such as, "We are not terrorists, but if you continue to show us celebrating I can't guarantee your safety."

To me that settled the issue right there.

Long live Israel!!! Long live the Israelis!!!

[VermilionUK]

The reason the Israelis began their mass migrations (aliyah's) to Israel is because they had nowhere else to go. Jews were being persecuted everywhere, not just in Nazi Germany. I agree that ever since the end of the British Mandate the fighting and violence has escalated far beyond any ones expectations, however it is understandable why the Zionists moved. Its not a takeover. It was a mass migration that shifted the population ratio of the area resulting in the UN giving each nation part of the land, and it was the Palestinians who refused to share- given it's not fair to have to loose some of your land- it was the UN that made the decision, not the Zionists (though of course they wanted it)
The conflict isn't a fight over land anymore, its a fight over Jerusalem.

Good analysis. Count me in with this'n.

I look at the issue in the "grander scheme" and wonder what happens if Israel is to cede even the least. I think of what I saw on 9/11 when the Palestinians were celebrating in the streets. Arafat said at the time such as, "We are not terrorists, but if you continue to show us celebrating I can't guarantee your safety."

To me that settled the issue right there.

Long live Israel!!! Long live the Israelis!!!

You know, I must concede that the argument over whether Israel should be Israel (whether it should have been allowed) is largely void - because its a recognised state. It's probably like me arguing whether the UK should be allowed to of formed.

But the thing that troubles me is the dismissive attitude of Israel's actions against those it occupies. Take a read of my previous posts regarding Israel's actions, and you'll be amazed at how this isn't more widely known.

Yes, what the Arabs are doing is the wrong way of doing things - and they are often branded as terrorists, and somewhat criticised - however, Israel is doing little better in terms of human relations, and yet the US still gives it aid, and the UN looks on in ignorance.

It's frustrating; I used to think that the Palestinians where like mindless goons - just constantly wanting to cause violence in Israel. But when I actually read into what was going on, I was baffled as to how Israel hasn't had any sanctions or UN intervention to stop what it has been doing.

Even taking one case: The blocking of Red Cross ambulances - nothing was done about that. What will it take for people to wake up and the UN to step in and take action against both Palestinine AND Israel?
They've blocked the Red Cross, bombed UN designated schools, used phosphorus, killed civilians, denied refugees access to their homes, destroyed towns, limited Palestinian movement, restricted water and medical supplies to palestinians....
Pffff, it's strange the way this world works...I don't think I'll ever understand it.

[Cathar1950]

The reason the Israelis began their mass migrations (aliyah's) to Israel is because they had nowhere else to go. Jews were being persecuted everywhere, not just in Nazi Germany. I agree that ever since the end of the British Mandate the fighting and violence has escalated far beyond any ones expectations, however it is understandable why the Zionists moved. Its not a takeover. It was a mass migration that shifted the population ratio of the area resulting in the UN giving each nation part of the land, and it was the Palestinians who refused to share- given it's not fair to have to loose some of your land- it was the UN that made the decision, not the Zionists (though of course they wanted it)
The conflict isn't a fight over land anymore, its a fight over Jerusalem.

Good analysis. Count me in with this'n.

I look at the issue in the "grander scheme" and wonder what happens if Israel is to cede even the least. I think of what I saw on 9/11 when the Palestinians were celebrating in the streets. Arafat said at the time such as, "We are not terrorists, but if you continue to show us celebrating I can't guarantee your safety."

To me that settled the issue right there.

Long live Israel!!! Long live the Israelis!!!

The nation is a nation and the world, including Israel's neighbors need to deal with it. How many little so-called "Arab" countries were created by British Mandate as they created an Arab consciousness to fight the Turks?
The world can not tolerate terrorism or the injustice that causes it.

[tatty]

The reason the Israelis began their mass migrations (aliyah's) to Israel is because they had nowhere else to go. Jews were being persecuted everywhere, not just in Nazi Germany. I agree that ever since the end of the British Mandate the fighting and violence has escalated far beyond any ones expectations, however it is understandable why the Zionists moved. Its not a takeover. It was a mass migration that shifted the population ratio of the area resulting in the UN giving each nation part of the land, and it was the Palestinians who refused to share- given it's not fair to have to loose some of your land- it was the UN that made the decision, not the Zionists (though of course they wanted it)
The conflict isn't a fight over land anymore, its a fight over Jerusalem.

Good analysis. Count me in with this'n.

I look at the issue in the "grander scheme" and wonder what happens if Israel is to cede even the least. I think of what I saw on 9/11 when the Palestinians were celebrating in the streets. Arafat said at the time such as, "We are not terrorists, but if you continue to show us celebrating I can't guarantee your safety."

To me that settled the issue right there.

Long live Israel!!! Long live the Israelis!!!

The nation is a nation and the world, including Israel's neighbors need to deal with it. How many little so-called "Arab" countries were created by British Mandate as they created an Arab consciousness to fight the Turks?
The world can not tolerate terrorism or the injustice that causes it.

I agree but if you look at the facts, Israel has committed as many terrorist atrocities as Palestine. As I previously stated Palestine's reaction was extreme yet Israels 'Iron Fist' policy was just as bad. The ICC has summoned Hamas to a trial which demonstrates their level of war crimes, only they are not as extreme. Palestine started terror as a way to gain the worlds attention, now neither side will stop until they have control of the region and Jerusalem in particular, even then the side that doesn't receive the cherished city will hit back harder. I don't see a way to peace, but both sides are just as accountable for its prevention.

[JoeyKnothead]

I agree but if you look at the facts, Israel has committed as many terrorist atrocities as Palestine. As I previously stated Palestine's reaction was extreme yet Israels 'Iron Fist' policy was just as bad. The ICC has summoned Hamas to a trial which demonstrates their level of war crimes, only they are not as extreme. Palestine started terror as a way to gain the worlds attention, now neither side will stop until they have control of the region and Jerusalem in particular, even then the side that doesn't receive the cherished city will hit back harder. I don't see a way to peace, but both sides are just as accountable for its prevention.

I don't normally question the tactics of a nation or people fighting for their very survival. That said, I agree Israel has acted in the past with a heavy hand, but consider such to be par for the course when dealing with folks who avow your complete destruction.

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't normally question the tactics of a nation or people fighting for their very survival. That said, I agree Israel has acted in the past with a heavy hand, but consider such to be par for the course when dealing with folks who avow your complete destruction.

Precisely.

[Jayhawker Soule]

But the thing that troubles me is the dismissive attitude of Israel's actions against those it occupies.

That is an uninformed perspective and, in fact, an irresponsible distortion. Israel has sought repeatedly to compromise with its neighbors and every effort at compromise has served only to embolden terrorism much as every inch unilaterally vacated has served as terrorist infrastructure.

The only thing that stands in the way of Gaza becoming the San Diego of the Levant is the vitriolic scum serving as Palestinian leadership.

[JoeyKnothead]

But the thing that troubles me is the dismissive attitude of Israel's actions against those it occupies.

That is an uninformed perspective and, in fact, an irresponsible distortion. Israel has sought repeatedly to compromise with its neighbors and every effort at compromise has served only to embolden terrorism much as every inch unilaterally vacated has served as terrorist infrastructure.

The only thing that stands in the way of Gaza becoming the San Diego of the Levant is the vitriolic scum serving as Palestinian leadership.

I don't see VirmilionUK's as an uninformed perspective so much as I see a seeking of some acknowledgement for those innocents involved.

I understand Israel's perspective, but I too think it would be in their best interest to try to display a bit more compassion, if only as an example. Of course then I get right back to the reason why they don't, and that's the lack of compassion their enemy shows them.

So, I fault Israel, but I for danged sure don't blame them.