Did he or didn't he?

[Athetotheist]

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)

How exactly are these to be reconciled?

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #168]

The only thing He didn't know as a man with angels observing on earth, was who would or would not come out of the city before destruction.

Here you acknowledge that he doesn't know every heart. If he did, he would know who would or would not come out of the city before he came down to earth.

Not until tested and judged by their work:

Gen 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

And as importantly, we know our own hearts by our own works, so that judgment is just.

The Scripture says the eyes of the Lord see all things, and that he judges the hearts by known works. He's not an autocrat that condemns by thoughts alone apart from works. Nor finds fault by words alone taken out of context.

Strange case for someone seeking judgment by thoughts and intents alone, that doesn't seek to be judged at all...

Again, in keeping with the record, he tests people to find out if they love him. So the Bible's literal words tell us that he is not omniscient and does not know the hearts of all men, contradicting Psalms and Acts.

He also knows the hearts of men and women can change by testing of life. The Lord waits to judge the works of this life, and not the heart of alone.

He isn't testing them to "change" them. He's commanding them not to do a specific thing [follow after other gods] and warning them that he himself will present enticements to follow other gods as a test so that he himself will gain knowledge of the state of their devotion. We know that's what the text is saying because those are its literal words.

You want to get into arguments of testing and judgment by the God of the Bible, then that's fine. Start up a thread in the Bible study section and let me know.

I acknowledge that i didn't consider superficial people, who only play word gotcha games, without including the purpose and teaching.

I'm playing the "game" by the rule you established, so don't blame me for scoring points.

I can score more points than you in meaningless gotcha games. I suppose there could be some childish fun in it.

You refuse the challenge of contradictions within context and teaching.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #171]

Here you acknowledge that he doesn't know every heart. If he did, he would know who would or would not come out of the city before he came down to earth.

Not until tested and judged by their work:

Gen 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

If he can't know the heart without testing and judging by work, then he doesn't know the secrets of the heart (Psalm 44:21) and isn't omniscient.

"You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
(Psalm 139:1-4)

Yahweh would be able to perceive the thoughts of everyone in Sodom from afar [if Acts 1:24 is to be believed]. How is this the same god as the one in Genesis 18 who doesn't know until he goes down to see?

The Scripture says the eyes of the Lord see all things

Which means he shouldn't have to go down and look.

and that he judges the hearts by known works. He's not an autocrat that condemns by thoughts alone apart from works. Nor finds fault by words alone taken out of context.

It isn't about what he "judges" or "condemns" or "finds fault" with. It's about what he knows.....or doesn't know.


He isn't testing them to "change" them. He's commanding them not to do a specific thing [follow after other gods] and warning them that he himself will present enticements to follow other gods as a test so that he himself will gain knowledge of the state of their devotion. We know that's what the text is saying because those are its literal words.

You want to get into arguments of testing and judgment by the God of the Bible, then that's fine. Start up a thread in the Bible study section and let me know.

No need for that. A simple answer here will do.

I can score more points than you in meaningless gotcha games. I suppose there could be some childish fun in it.

I'm still playing your game by your rule.

You refuse the challenge of contradictions within context and teaching.

Rather, you respond to obvious textual contradictions by throwing random verses at the wall. Sure, you can always find some passage somewhere which mentions some attribute of Yahweh, but that doesn't change the literal record of verses in which he clearly fails to exhibit that attribute.

That's how to put things in context.

[RBD]

Yahweh would be able to perceive the thoughts of everyone in Sodom from afar [if Acts 1:24 is to be believed]. How is this the same god as the one in Genesis 18 who doesn't know until he goes down to see?

No wonder the 'smart' Jews, that didn't believe their own Scriptures, completely miss their own Messiah, as well as the faith and heritage of Abraham.

The reject the judgment of Almighty God by works, while seeing the hearts first.

The Scripture says the eyes of the Lord see all things

Which means he shouldn't have to go down and look.

and that he judges the hearts by known works. He's not an autocrat that condemns by thoughts alone apart from works. Nor finds fault by words alone taken out of context.

It isn't about what he "judges" or "condemns" or "finds fault" with. It's about what he knows.....or doesn't know.

Once again, it's all about teaching and context of Scripture, not just endless gotcha word games.

Rather, you respond to obvious textual contradictions by throwing random verses at the wall. Sure, you can always find some passage somewhere which mentions some attribute of Yahweh, but that doesn't change the literal record of verses in which he clearly fails to exhibit that attribute.

You can always find words for gotcha. Scripture always gives clear teaching for why gotcha don't work with His words.

Mar 12:13
And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.

Job 5:13
He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.




And so, if nothing new, time to move. Thanks.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #173]

Yahweh would be able to perceive the thoughts of everyone in Sodom from afar [if Acts 1:24 is to be believed]. How is this the same god as the one in Genesis 18 who doesn't know until he goes down to see?

No wonder the 'smart' Jews, that didn't believe their own Scriptures, completely miss their own Messiah, as well as the faith and heritage of Abraham.

The reject the judgment of Almighty God by works, while seeing the hearts first.

Is there supposed to be an answer to the question here?


It isn't about what he "judges" or "condemns" or "finds fault" with. It's about what he knows.....or doesn't know.

Once again, it's all about teaching and context of Scripture, not just endless gotcha word games.

"Teaching and context of Scripture" are exactly what show us that the god of the Bible is described in contradictory ways.


Rather, you respond to obvious textual contradictions by throwing random verses at the wall. Sure, you can always find some passage somewhere which mentions some attribute of Yahweh, but that doesn't change the literal record of verses in which he clearly fails to exhibit that attribute.

You can always find words for gotcha. Scripture always gives clear teaching for why gotcha don't work with His words.

Being able to find something in the Bible to refute something else you find in the Bible doesn't make for "clear teaching".

[RBD]

It isn't about what he "judges" or "condemns" or "finds fault" with. It's about what he knows.....or doesn't know.

That's been the point that you now at least address. His first seeing the heart, is not His knowing by works. Simple.

You keep saying the LORD already knows something, that he never says He knows except by works, and then accuse Him of contradiction. Just another gotcha reading to make a false accusation based upon a false interpretation of what is actually written.

Scripture shows where the Lord does say He knows something by the works, not by seeing the heart alone. You accuse Him of already knowing by seeing the heart alone, which He never says in Scripture. You say the LORD does know the person to judge by seeing the heart alone, then quote the scripture, where the LORD says He knows anyone before doing any works.

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, whether for the good or evil. But he does not know what we will do, until we do it. We have our to do with Him bty works, not by thoughts and intents alone.

In Rev 2 & 3, Jesus never says He knows us by our thoughts and intents, but only by our works: Rev 2:2 I know thy works... Rev 2:9 I know thy works... Rev 2:13 I know thy works... Rev 2:19 I know thy works... Rev 3:1 I know thy works... Rev 3:8 I know thy works... Rev 3:15 I know thy works...

You have not shown one Scripture where God says He knows anyone by their thoughts and intents alone. He sees them clear enough, but He does not know and judge anyone without our works.

Gen 18:19
For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

This is only when newly named Abraham is of old age, after the Lord has seen His works of faith and obedience. This is not known by Abram's heart alone in Ur or Haran or his arrival in Canaan...

Rev{20:12}
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The LORD who sees all things in open and in secret, is showing all people, that He does not know us by thoughts and intents alone, but only by works. He therefore only judges us by works, not by thoughts and intents alone: As it's said, Good intentions alone count for nothing. And evil thoughts alone do not send anyone to hell...

You're looking for a God that knows and judges people by thoughts and intents alone, by which most all would die at childhood. And yet, no doubt, you don't want to be judged by your works either, much less your heart alone.

Athetotheist wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 8:43 am
Being able to find something in the Bible to refute something else you find in the Bible doesn't make for "clear teaching".

Being able to find context and study, that refutes what's not found but only accused, makes for simple teaching rather than gotcha accusations.

I would suggest you actually study first for yourself, to see the correction of the typical gotcha words, but that's not your purpose. So, I'm all too glad to supply the study and teaching to answer them, because I enjoy the discipline of study and learning for myself.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #175]

God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, whether for the good or evil. But he does not know what we will do, until we do it.

Then Jesus couldn't have known that Peter was about to deny him, and certainly couldn't have known how many times he would do so.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #175]

God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, whether for the good or evil. But he does not know what we will do, until we do it.

Then Jesus couldn't have known that Peter was about to deny him, and certainly couldn't have known how many times he would do so.

Good point. But, now you're mistaking the judgment of works with prophecy.

Jesus' prophecy was by foreknowledge of works to be done, not by knowing the thoughts of Peter, which at the time were fervently sincere. Which is why God does not know not judge by thoughts alone, but also by works, whether for the good or the bad.

Mat 21:28
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

God does not know nor judge anyone by good or bad intents alone, but by works done.

[OneJack]

[Replying to RBD in post #175]

God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, whether for the good or evil. But he does not know what we will do, until we do it.

Then Jesus couldn't have known that Peter was about to deny him, and certainly couldn't have known how many times he would do so.

Good point. But, now you're mistaking the judgment of works with prophecy.

Jesus' prophecy was by foreknowledge of works to be done, not by knowing the thoughts of Peter, which at the time were fervently sincere. Which is why God does not know not judge by thoughts alone, but also by works, whether for the good or the bad.

Mat 21:28
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

God does not know nor judge anyone by good or bad intents alone, but by works done.

Saying 'God does not know' means God would not be omniscient, and there would be something impossible to God. Where have you learned that notion from?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #177]

Good point. But, now you're mistaking the judgment of works with prophecy.

Jesus' prophecy was by foreknowledge of works to be done, not by knowing the thoughts of Peter

You're contradicting yourself. You said that

God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, whether for the good or evil. But he does not know what we will do, until we do it.

So according to you, Jesus couldn't have prophesied by "foreknowledge of works" to be done by Peter, because he wouldn't have had that foreknowledge.