Is evolution not a theory after all?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Confused
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Is evolution not a theory after all?

Post #1

Post by Confused »

Is this true. As most of you know, I thoroughly enjoy the asa3.org site. Some of the scientists I think may be respectable, but insert their bias into their assumptions. But many are respectable and maintain the separation quite effectively. So running through the past articles I stumble across the following from the article "Needed: A new vocabulary for understanding evolution":

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2006/PSCF3-06NelsonF.pdf
Volume 58, Number 1, March 2006 31
Fredric P. Nelson
No Scientific Theory of Evolution Exists
The National Academy of Sciences wrote: “Evolution is one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have.”17 Is this statement true?
Confusion exists between the definition of a scientific
theory, a scientific hypothesis, and the popular definition
of a theory. Many scientists talk about a scientific theory
when, in fact, they are talking about a scientific hypothesis
or conjecture.
The National Association of Biology Teachers stated:
In science, a theory is not a guess or an approximation
but an extensive explanation developed from welldocumented,
reproducible sets of experimentallyderived
data from repeated observations of natural
processes. The National Academy of Science stated that:
An idea that has not been sufficiently tested is called a hypothesis. Different hypotheses are sometimes advanced to explain the same factual evidence.
Rigor in the testing of hypotheses is the heart of science. If no verifiable tests can be formulated, the idea is called an ad hoc hypothesis. Therefore, a scientific theory requires confirmatory data derived from valid, reproducible, scientific experimentation and cannot be based on observations alone. A scientific hypothesis is “an unproved theory, proposition, supposition, etc. tentatively accepted to explain certain facts or to provide a basis for further
investigation.”
In common usage, a theory is “a speculative idea or plan as to how
something might be done, and, popularly, a mere conjecture or guess.” For naturalistic evolution to be a scientific theory, each of three components must be a scientific theory. They are:
(1) the naturalistic evolution of the
first cell;
(2) naturalistic microevolution; and
(3) naturalistic macroevolution.
John Rennie wrote: “The origin of life remains very much a mystery.” Alvin
Plantinga wrote: “(A)t present all such accounts of the origin of life are at best
enormously problematic.” Since a scientific theory cannot be based on a scientific mystery or on enormously problematic accounts, the naturalistic evolution of the first cell cannot be a component of a scientific theory of evolution.
Francisco Ayala wrote: “[S]cience relies on observation, replication and experimentation, but nobody has seen the origin of the universe or the evolution of species, nor have these events been replicated in the laboratory or by experiment.”
David Depew wrote:
“I could not agree more with the claim that contemporary Darwinism lacks models that can explain the evolution of cellular pathways and the problem of the origin of life.”
A scientific theory cannot be based on events that have been neither observed nor
replicated, and a scientific theory cannot be based on the unknown evolution of cellular pathways. Nor can a scientific theory be based on promissory materialism. As noted earlier, naturalistic macroevolution has absolutely no unique and unequivocal supporting data and is an irrational scientific hypothesis. Naturalistic macroevolution is not a component of a scientific theory of evolution. No scientific theory of evolution exists because the naturalistic evolution of the first cell and naturalistic macroevolution do not qualify as scientific theories. The naturalistic
evolution of the first cell and naturalistic macroevolution are actually ad hoc hypotheses, because the exact chemical and physical conditions present during specific steps in evolution cannot be known and because no scientific data exist to indicate that a specific mechanism was actually operative for any specific step.
Mayr wrote that evolutionary biology is a historical science based on observation,
comparison, and classification and that experimentation is inappropriate for understanding the historical progression of evolution. He claims that theories in evolutionary biology are based on concepts rather than laws as is the case in the physical sciences. The evolutionary biology of Mayr is an ordering and stratification of data, not a scientific theory. Further, the observations, comparisons, and classifications taking place in evolutionary biology do not and cannot reveal causative agency.
Questions for debate:
Does evolution meet the criteria as set forth by the Amicus Curiae Brief submitted by the 72 Nobel laureates, 17 state academies, and 7 other science organizations as a theory based on their short definition of the scientific method:
Facts: The properties of natural Phenomena. They come from observation. The scientific method involves rigorous, methodological testing of principles that might present a naturalistic explanation of those facts.
Hypotheses: Based on well established facts, testable hypotheses are formed. The process of testing leads scientists to accord a special dignity to those hypotheses that accumulate substantial observational and experimental support. Theories.
Theory: This special dignity is accorded when it explains a large and diverse body of facts, is considered robust, and if it consistently predicts new phenomena that are subsequently observed to deem it reliable.

Is it nothing more than a hypothesis or should we humor the author of this article and develop an entire new terminology for this evolution so as not to confuse it with an actual theory.

My own position, it meets the criteria as set forth to be a theory. It is testable, and the Human Genome Project proved that we can in fact make predict new phenomena was well as track old as in the case of ARE's for old phenomena predictions and genetic sequences for current predictions. That alone isn't my sole reason, rather the convergence of evidence is what makes it a strong theory in my opinion, but I have to wonder if I am inserting my own bias.
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Post #11

Post by jdeuel3868 »

I am currently a Biology Major in college and the first thing they basically teach anymore is that evolution has to be understood as factual or nothing that they show you will make sense. For the most part they have been right, in Zoology you start with the most basic phylums and you move your way up and you can see how most of this stuff developed. I am a very spiritual person and I have no trouble trusting evolutionary theories. I even do think we evolved from primates, why not? I believe even God has to follow the laws of nature, physics, and all the sciences.

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Post #12

Post by Confused »

jdeuel3868 wrote:I am currently a Biology Major in college and the first thing they basically teach anymore is that evolution has to be understood as factual or nothing that they show you will make sense. For the most part they have been right, in Zoology you start with the most basic phylums and you move your way up and you can see how most of this stuff developed. I am a very spiritual person and I have no trouble trusting evolutionary theories. I even do think we evolved from primates, why not? I believe even God has to follow the laws of nature, physics, and all the sciences.
Wow. Biology must have severely changed their curriculum in the past several years. When I got my degree in it, they started us out with the assumption that nothing is ever a fact until it is proven a fact. Including evolution. Evolution is fact because it is reliable and valid. It both explains observations and predicts outcomes. Honestly, if someone had told me in the beginning of my college education that I had to accept anything as fact just to make sense of it, I would have to play devils advocate and try to prove just the opposite for no other reason than the fact that I was always told to question everything.

In hindsight, had I not questioned everything, perhaps I wouldn't be in such a state of confusion.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Post #13

Post by jdeuel3868 »

Confused wrote:
jdeuel3868 wrote:I am currently a Biology Major in college and the first thing they basically teach anymore is that evolution has to be understood as factual or nothing that they show you will make sense. For the most part they have been right, in Zoology you start with the most basic phylums and you move your way up and you can see how most of this stuff developed. I am a very spiritual person and I have no trouble trusting evolutionary theories. I even do think we evolved from primates, why not? I believe even God has to follow the laws of nature, physics, and all the sciences.


Wow. Biology must have severely changed their curriculum in the past several years. When I got my degree in it, they started us out with the assumption that nothing is ever a fact until it is proven a fact. Including evolution. Evolution is fact because it is reliable and valid. It both explains observations and predicts outcomes. Honestly, if someone had told me in the beginning of my college education that I had to accept anything as fact just to make sense of it, I would have to play devils advocate and try to prove just the opposite for no other reason than the fact that I was always told to question everything.

In hindsight, had I not questioned everything, perhaps I wouldn't be in such a state of confusion.


They do teach that to, but if you can show something exists then it becomes a fact right? I think its pretty easy to show evolution has occured by looking at many things like variation of species, homologous parts, and even vestigial organs/parts in many animals that are left in their DNA. Also without evolution how do we even begin to classify things. Take molluscs for an example a snail, squid, and clam all belong to this group though they look nothing alike, why? Because they all have similar parts just adapted in different ways. Even us mammals have gills in our embryonic stage. What else needs to be shown till people accept evolution?

Also its a good thing to question everything and not just blindly accept what someone else says. If everyone did that I think the world would be a little more intelligent.

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Post #14

Post by Confused »

jdeuel3868 wrote:
Confused wrote:
jdeuel3868 wrote:I am currently a Biology Major in college and the first thing they basically teach anymore is that evolution has to be understood as factual or nothing that they show you will make sense. For the most part they have been right, in Zoology you start with the most basic phylums and you move your way up and you can see how most of this stuff developed. I am a very spiritual person and I have no trouble trusting evolutionary theories. I even do think we evolved from primates, why not? I believe even God has to follow the laws of nature, physics, and all the sciences.


Wow. Biology must have severely changed their curriculum in the past several years. When I got my degree in it, they started us out with the assumption that nothing is ever a fact until it is proven a fact. Including evolution. Evolution is fact because it is reliable and valid. It both explains observations and predicts outcomes. Honestly, if someone had told me in the beginning of my college education that I had to accept anything as fact just to make sense of it, I would have to play devils advocate and try to prove just the opposite for no other reason than the fact that I was always told to question everything.

In hindsight, had I not questioned everything, perhaps I wouldn't be in such a state of confusion.


They do teach that to, but if you can show something exists then it becomes a fact right? I think its pretty easy to show evolution has occured by looking at many things like variation of species, homologous parts, and even vestigial organs/parts in many animals that are left in their DNA. Also without evolution how do we even begin to classify things. Take molluscs for an example a snail, squid, and clam all belong to this group though they look nothing alike, why? Because they all have similar parts just adapted in different ways. Even us mammals have gills in our embryonic stage. What else needs to be shown till people accept evolution?

Also its a good thing to question everything and not just blindly accept what someone else says. If everyone did that I think the world would be a little more intelligent.
Simply because we can show something to be a fact today, doens't mean it will hold up tomorrow. That is why the scientific method is a never ending process that seldom holds anything as concrete. Consider how many theories we have as compared to how many "laws" we have.

How many theories have we ended up scrapping after centuries of believing them to be fact? (not many granted, but we have had a few)

Don't get me wrong. I consider evolution to be both theory and fact. However, I reserve room for error.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Post #15

Post by jdeuel3868 »

Confused wrote:
jdeuel3868 wrote:
Confused wrote:
jdeuel3868 wrote:I am currently a Biology Major in college and the first thing they basically teach anymore is that evolution has to be understood as factual or nothing that they show you will make sense. For the most part they have been right, in Zoology you start with the most basic phylums and you move your way up and you can see how most of this stuff developed. I am a very spiritual person and I have no trouble trusting evolutionary theories. I even do think we evolved from primates, why not? I believe even God has to follow the laws of nature, physics, and all the sciences.


Wow. Biology must have severely changed their curriculum in the past several years. When I got my degree in it, they started us out with the assumption that nothing is ever a fact until it is proven a fact. Including evolution. Evolution is fact because it is reliable and valid. It both explains observations and predicts outcomes. Honestly, if someone had told me in the beginning of my college education that I had to accept anything as fact just to make sense of it, I would have to play devils advocate and try to prove just the opposite for no other reason than the fact that I was always told to question everything.

In hindsight, had I not questioned everything, perhaps I wouldn't be in such a state of confusion.


They do teach that to, but if you can show something exists then it becomes a fact right? I think its pretty easy to show evolution has occured by looking at many things like variation of species, homologous parts, and even vestigial organs/parts in many animals that are left in their DNA. Also without evolution how do we even begin to classify things. Take molluscs for an example a snail, squid, and clam all belong to this group though they look nothing alike, why? Because they all have similar parts just adapted in different ways. Even us mammals have gills in our embryonic stage. What else needs to be shown till people accept evolution?

Also its a good thing to question everything and not just blindly accept what someone else says. If everyone did that I think the world would be a little more intelligent.
Simply because we can show something to be a fact today, doens't mean it will hold up tomorrow. That is why the scientific method is a never ending process that seldom holds anything as concrete. Consider how many theories we have as compared to how many "laws" we have.

How many theories have we ended up scrapping after centuries of believing them to be fact? (not many granted, but we have had a few)

Don't get me wrong. I consider evolution to be both theory and fact. However, I reserve room for error.
Can't argue with that logic at all.

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Post #16

Post by Cephus »

micatala wrote:Only creationists divide evolution into macro versus micro.
And it has to be remembered that the only reason they came up with 'macro vs micro' is because their last claim, that there was absolutely no biological change whatsoever, was so soundly and utterly disproven. When the whole 'macro vs. micro' nonsense gets tossed aside by the weight of evidence, they'll just come up with something else.

Creationists aren't interested in truth, they're interested in putting forward a useless, worthless and patently false belief system, screw the evidence.

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Post #17

Post by micatala »

Confused wrote:
jdeuel3868 wrote:
Confused wrote:
jdeuel3868 wrote:I am currently a Biology Major in college and the first thing they basically teach anymore is that evolution has to be understood as factual or nothing that they show you will make sense. For the most part they have been right, in Zoology you start with the most basic phylums and you move your way up and you can see how most of this stuff developed. I am a very spiritual person and I have no trouble trusting evolutionary theories. I even do think we evolved from primates, why not? I believe even God has to follow the laws of nature, physics, and all the sciences.


Wow. Biology must have severely changed their curriculum in the past several years. When I got my degree in it, they started us out with the assumption that nothing is ever a fact until it is proven a fact. Including evolution. Evolution is fact because it is reliable and valid. It both explains observations and predicts outcomes. Honestly, if someone had told me in the beginning of my college education that I had to accept anything as fact just to make sense of it, I would have to play devils advocate and try to prove just the opposite for no other reason than the fact that I was always told to question everything.

In hindsight, had I not questioned everything, perhaps I wouldn't be in such a state of confusion.


They do teach that to, but if you can show something exists then it becomes a fact right? I think its pretty easy to show evolution has occured by looking at many things like variation of species, homologous parts, and even vestigial organs/parts in many animals that are left in their DNA. Also without evolution how do we even begin to classify things. Take molluscs for an example a snail, squid, and clam all belong to this group though they look nothing alike, why? Because they all have similar parts just adapted in different ways. Even us mammals have gills in our embryonic stage. What else needs to be shown till people accept evolution?

Also its a good thing to question everything and not just blindly accept what someone else says. If everyone did that I think the world would be a little more intelligent.
Simply because we can show something to be a fact today, doens't mean it will hold up tomorrow. That is why the scientific method is a never ending process that seldom holds anything as concrete. Consider how many theories we have as compared to how many "laws" we have.

How many theories have we ended up scrapping after centuries of believing them to be fact? (not many granted, but we have had a few)

Don't get me wrong. I consider evolution to be both theory and fact. However, I reserve room for error.
I think we need to distinguish between facts and theories.

Theories do change. However, it is pretty rare that 'facts' change, at least these days. I can't see that certain facts of evolution are every going to change. Things like, the general historical sequencing of life (microbial before trilobites before dinosaurs before horses before humans, etc.), the rough dating of life on earth, etc. for example.

Now, how we explain these facts might change. Just like Einstein's explanation for gravity replaced Newton's which replaced Aristotle's, but in all cases the fact that things fall towards the earth did not change.

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Post #18

Post by Confused »

Very well put Micatala.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

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Post #19

Post by Bart007 »

I don't know who originally wrote the following, but it is wrong.

"Facts: The properties of natural Phenomena. They come from observation. The scientific method involves rigorous, methodological testing of principles that might present a naturalistic explanation of those facts.
Hypotheses: Based on well established facts, testable hypotheses are formed. The process of testing leads scientists to accord a special dignity to those hypotheses that accumulate substantial observational and experimental support. Theories.
Theory: This special dignity is accorded when it explains a large and diverse body of facts, is considered robust, and if it consistently predicts new phenomena that are subsequently observed to deem it reliable."

Facts are data, data has no meaning by themselves.. It is Theory that gives facts meaning. It happens from time to time that two opposing Theories give totally different meaning to the same facts, yet they both seem right in their presentation and explaination of the facts, yet both can't be true.

Einstein did not examine all the facts and then said, "whaddayuknow, the facts show that light travels at a constant speed, even in different inertial refernce frames. Well I'll be darned, how about that."

What Einstein did do is hypothesize "What if the speed of light speed is constant in all inertial reference frames, what effects would this predict." He made other assumptions too, including throwing out the hypothesis of the existence 'ether' as the medium through which lights travels. From this he developed his E= MC^2 equation, which says that light has mass. From this he calculated how much light would bend when passing through the gravity of a star. In 1919, light from a star bent as it passed a star at the angle Einstein predicted form his theory.

Hypothesis is a human idea by which a set of data will be interpreted and future behaviour is predicted.

The scientific method or Poppers hypothetico-deductive method to test wether or not the Hypothesis gives satisfactory meaning to the data. Vith require repeated observations.

If the hypothesis survives legitimate repeated observation, or it has not been falsified via legitimate risky predictions, then it is looked upon as a sound scientific hypothesis or Theory.

When speaking of evolution, we have the alleged General Theory of Evolution: All creatures living or extant share a common ancestry.

Then we have Darwin's Theory of Evolution which states members of a species will vary in their body plan via accidental random occurences that provide new novelle genetic information that will give benefit of those that posses this new genetic information over their un-evolved cousins. These advantages will allow them to bare more offspring and squeeze out their unevolved cousins who will die out. This mechanism to evolution is darwin's sole contribution to the General theory of Evolution.

Micatala writes "Only creationists divide evolution into macro versus micro."

Stephen Gould and Niles Eldredge defined evolution into micro and macro, not creationists. Micro is evolution up to and including speciation, Macro is at the family level and higher. that is Gould's definition.

Evoution, the general theory, is a metaphysical research program and not a scientific theory. It is an historical search of past singular events based upon the idea of common ancestry.

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Post #20

Post by micatala »

Bart007 wrote:Micatala writes "Only creationists divide evolution into macro versus micro."

Stephen Gould and Niles Eldredge defined evolution into micro and macro, not creationists. Micro is evolution up to and including speciation, Macro is at the family level and higher. that is Gould's definition.

Evoution, the general theory, is a metaphysical research program and not a scientific theory. It is an historical search of past singular events based upon the idea of common ancestry.
I am certainly willing to be corrected. My experience has been that evolutionary biologists only use these terms when responding to creationist contentions, but I could be wrong. Do you have citations of Gould or others using these in other contexts?

Also, the reason creationists make this distinction is in order to try and make a false separation between 'micro' evolution which they have been forced to accept, and 'macro' evolution which they wish to continue to deny. Certainly Gould would accept that both 'micro and macro' evolution occur and that they are likely the result of the same process.

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