Is evolution not a theory after all?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Is evolution not a theory after all?

Post #1

Post by Confused »

Is this true. As most of you know, I thoroughly enjoy the asa3.org site. Some of the scientists I think may be respectable, but insert their bias into their assumptions. But many are respectable and maintain the separation quite effectively. So running through the past articles I stumble across the following from the article "Needed: A new vocabulary for understanding evolution":

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2006/PSCF3-06NelsonF.pdf
Volume 58, Number 1, March 2006 31
Fredric P. Nelson
No Scientific Theory of Evolution Exists
The National Academy of Sciences wrote: “Evolution is one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have.”17 Is this statement true?
Confusion exists between the definition of a scientific
theory, a scientific hypothesis, and the popular definition
of a theory. Many scientists talk about a scientific theory
when, in fact, they are talking about a scientific hypothesis
or conjecture.
The National Association of Biology Teachers stated:
In science, a theory is not a guess or an approximation
but an extensive explanation developed from welldocumented,
reproducible sets of experimentallyderived
data from repeated observations of natural
processes. The National Academy of Science stated that:
An idea that has not been sufficiently tested is called a hypothesis. Different hypotheses are sometimes advanced to explain the same factual evidence.
Rigor in the testing of hypotheses is the heart of science. If no verifiable tests can be formulated, the idea is called an ad hoc hypothesis. Therefore, a scientific theory requires confirmatory data derived from valid, reproducible, scientific experimentation and cannot be based on observations alone. A scientific hypothesis is “an unproved theory, proposition, supposition, etc. tentatively accepted to explain certain facts or to provide a basis for further
investigation.”
In common usage, a theory is “a speculative idea or plan as to how
something might be done, and, popularly, a mere conjecture or guess.” For naturalistic evolution to be a scientific theory, each of three components must be a scientific theory. They are:
(1) the naturalistic evolution of the
first cell;
(2) naturalistic microevolution; and
(3) naturalistic macroevolution.
John Rennie wrote: “The origin of life remains very much a mystery.” Alvin
Plantinga wrote: “(A)t present all such accounts of the origin of life are at best
enormously problematic.” Since a scientific theory cannot be based on a scientific mystery or on enormously problematic accounts, the naturalistic evolution of the first cell cannot be a component of a scientific theory of evolution.
Francisco Ayala wrote: “[S]cience relies on observation, replication and experimentation, but nobody has seen the origin of the universe or the evolution of species, nor have these events been replicated in the laboratory or by experiment.”
David Depew wrote:
“I could not agree more with the claim that contemporary Darwinism lacks models that can explain the evolution of cellular pathways and the problem of the origin of life.”
A scientific theory cannot be based on events that have been neither observed nor
replicated, and a scientific theory cannot be based on the unknown evolution of cellular pathways. Nor can a scientific theory be based on promissory materialism. As noted earlier, naturalistic macroevolution has absolutely no unique and unequivocal supporting data and is an irrational scientific hypothesis. Naturalistic macroevolution is not a component of a scientific theory of evolution. No scientific theory of evolution exists because the naturalistic evolution of the first cell and naturalistic macroevolution do not qualify as scientific theories. The naturalistic
evolution of the first cell and naturalistic macroevolution are actually ad hoc hypotheses, because the exact chemical and physical conditions present during specific steps in evolution cannot be known and because no scientific data exist to indicate that a specific mechanism was actually operative for any specific step.
Mayr wrote that evolutionary biology is a historical science based on observation,
comparison, and classification and that experimentation is inappropriate for understanding the historical progression of evolution. He claims that theories in evolutionary biology are based on concepts rather than laws as is the case in the physical sciences. The evolutionary biology of Mayr is an ordering and stratification of data, not a scientific theory. Further, the observations, comparisons, and classifications taking place in evolutionary biology do not and cannot reveal causative agency.
Questions for debate:
Does evolution meet the criteria as set forth by the Amicus Curiae Brief submitted by the 72 Nobel laureates, 17 state academies, and 7 other science organizations as a theory based on their short definition of the scientific method:
Facts: The properties of natural Phenomena. They come from observation. The scientific method involves rigorous, methodological testing of principles that might present a naturalistic explanation of those facts.
Hypotheses: Based on well established facts, testable hypotheses are formed. The process of testing leads scientists to accord a special dignity to those hypotheses that accumulate substantial observational and experimental support. Theories.
Theory: This special dignity is accorded when it explains a large and diverse body of facts, is considered robust, and if it consistently predicts new phenomena that are subsequently observed to deem it reliable.

Is it nothing more than a hypothesis or should we humor the author of this article and develop an entire new terminology for this evolution so as not to confuse it with an actual theory.

My own position, it meets the criteria as set forth to be a theory. It is testable, and the Human Genome Project proved that we can in fact make predict new phenomena was well as track old as in the case of ARE's for old phenomena predictions and genetic sequences for current predictions. That alone isn't my sole reason, rather the convergence of evidence is what makes it a strong theory in my opinion, but I have to wonder if I am inserting my own bias.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Post #21

Post by Bart007 »

micatala wrote:
Bart007 wrote:Micatala writes "Only creationists divide evolution into macro versus micro."

Stephen Gould and Niles Eldredge defined evolution into micro and macro, not creationists. Micro is evolution up to and including speciation, Macro is at the family level and higher. that is Gould's definition.

Evoution, the general theory, is a metaphysical research program and not a scientific theory. It is an historical search of past singular events based upon the idea of common ancestry.
I am certainly willing to be corrected. My experience has been that evolutionary biologists only use these terms when responding to creationist contentions, but I could be wrong. Do you have citations of Gould or others using these in other contexts?

Also, the reason creationists make this distinction is in order to try and make a false separation between 'micro' evolution which they have been forced to accept, and 'macro' evolution which they wish to continue to deny. Certainly Gould would accept that both 'micro and macro' evolution occur and that they are likely the result of the same process.
Here are Gould's exact words:

Macro-evolution: Evolutionary change above the species level (e.g. long term trends within lineages and mass extinctions).


Micro-evolution: Evolutionary change within local populations up to the origin of a new species.

I don't have the cite handy, However, the following is is a conference of leading evolutionists debating the question:

Does micro-evolution plus time = macroevolution?

Evolutionary Theory Under Fire -Roger Lewin

An Historic Conference in Chicago challenges the four-decade long dominance of the Modern Synthesis ...

The changes within a population have been termed microevolution, and they can indeed be accepted as a consequence of shifting gene frequences [sic]. Changes above the species level - involving the origin of new species and the establishment of higher taxonomic patterns - are known as macroevolution. The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No.



"Evolutionary Theory Under Fire" by Roger Lewin, Science magazine, Volume 210, 21 November 1980, pp 883-887.

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Post #22

Post by Goat »

Bart007 wrote:
micatala wrote:
Bart007 wrote:Micatala writes "Only creationists divide evolution into macro versus micro."

Stephen Gould and Niles Eldredge defined evolution into micro and macro, not creationists. Micro is evolution up to and including speciation, Macro is at the family level and higher. that is Gould's definition.

Evoution, the general theory, is a metaphysical research program and not a scientific theory. It is an historical search of past singular events based upon the idea of common ancestry.
I am certainly willing to be corrected. My experience has been that evolutionary biologists only use these terms when responding to creationist contentions, but I could be wrong. Do you have citations of Gould or others using these in other contexts?

Also, the reason creationists make this distinction is in order to try and make a false separation between 'micro' evolution which they have been forced to accept, and 'macro' evolution which they wish to continue to deny. Certainly Gould would accept that both 'micro and macro' evolution occur and that they are likely the result of the same process.
Here are Gould's exact words:

Macro-evolution: Evolutionary change above the species level (e.g. long term trends within lineages and mass extinctions).


Micro-evolution: Evolutionary change within local populations up to the origin of a new species.

I don't have the cite handy, However, the following is is a conference of leading evolutionists debating the question:

Does micro-evolution plus time = macroevolution?

Evolutionary Theory Under Fire -Roger Lewin

An Historic Conference in Chicago challenges the four-decade long dominance of the Modern Synthesis ...

The changes within a population have been termed microevolution, and they can indeed be accepted as a consequence of shifting gene frequences [sic]. Changes above the species level - involving the origin of new species and the establishment of higher taxonomic patterns - are known as macroevolution. The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No.



"Evolutionary Theory Under Fire" by Roger Lewin, Science magazine, Volume 210, 21 November 1980, pp 883-887.
there seems to be a lot of doubt about the verasciy of Rocger Lewin in that particular article
http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/anot ... _quote.htm

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Post #23

Post by Bart007 »

goat wrote:
Bart007 wrote:
micatala wrote:
Bart007 wrote:Micatala writes "Only creationists divide evolution into macro versus micro."

Stephen Gould and Niles Eldredge defined evolution into micro and macro, not creationists. Micro is evolution up to and including speciation, Macro is at the family level and higher. that is Gould's definition.

Evoution, the general theory, is a metaphysical research program and not a scientific theory. It is an historical search of past singular events based upon the idea of common ancestry.
I am certainly willing to be corrected. My experience has been that evolutionary biologists only use these terms when responding to creationist contentions, but I could be wrong. Do you have citations of Gould or others using these in other contexts?

Also, the reason creationists make this distinction is in order to try and make a false separation between 'micro' evolution which they have been forced to accept, and 'macro' evolution which they wish to continue to deny. Certainly Gould would accept that both 'micro and macro' evolution occur and that they are likely the result of the same process.
Here are Gould's exact words:

Macro-evolution: Evolutionary change above the species level (e.g. long term trends within lineages and mass extinctions).


Micro-evolution: Evolutionary change within local populations up to the origin of a new species.

I don't have the cite handy, However, the following is is a conference of leading evolutionists debating the question:

Does micro-evolution plus time = macroevolution?

Evolutionary Theory Under Fire -Roger Lewin

An Historic Conference in Chicago challenges the four-decade long dominance of the Modern Synthesis ...

The changes within a population have been termed microevolution, and they can indeed be accepted as a consequence of shifting gene frequences [sic]. Changes above the species level - involving the origin of new species and the establishment of higher taxonomic patterns - are known as macroevolution. The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No.



"Evolutionary Theory Under Fire" by Roger Lewin, Science magazine, Volume 210, 21 November 1980, pp 883-887.
there seems to be a lot of doubt about the verasciy of Rocger Lewin in that particular article
http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/anot ... _quote.htm
There is no doubt about Roger Lewin's veracity. Ayala was being cute. I refuted arrowsmith's claim back in 2002. Evolutionists on Talk Origins acknowledged that Ayala was not being totally honest.

Ayala is hemming and hawing here and grandstanding for the public. Yes, he did present what proved to be a minority report defending Darwinism and rehashing the biologists preference for the modern synthesis, but most evolutionists that attended rejected that and they provided a lot of contrary evidence from the fossil record that refute Ayala's allegiance to Neo-Darwinism. He admitted that the Modern Synthesis would never predict what the paleontologists demonstrated the fossil record to be, and, according to Lewin, Ayala did say that small changes do not accumulate [into macro-evolution]. Lewin left off the words in brackets because back then, it was understood via the context of Lewin's article. I find Ayala's claim as presented by Arrowsmith, that Lewin misrepresented him, to be very weak. Of course Ayala knows that small changes accumulate, they accumulate into micro-evolution. He knows full will that there is no scientific evidence that small changes accumulate into macro-evolution, which was the theme of that conference. If he had any, he would have presented it at the conference in Chicago, and he would had done so in 2001 when arrowsmith e-mailed him about it.

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Post #24

Post by Bart007 »

Here is a response right here on Debating Christianity & Religion from several months ago: Post 18: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Microevolution vs. Macroevolution, And it was addressed to you goat! r u in need of some vitamin B-12 shots.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goat, if the quote of Francisco Ayala is a misquote, you must credit that to evolutionary scientists and eyewitness to the proceedings: Roger Lewin.

Richard Arrowsmith questioned Ayala on this quote, Ayala's response was:

"I don't know how Roger Lewin could have gotten in his notes the quotation he attributes to me. I presented a paper/lecture and spoke at various times from the floor, but I could not possibly have said (at least as a complete sentence) what Lewin attributes to me. In fact, I don't know what it means. How could small changes NOT accumulate! In any case, virtually all my evolutionary research papers evidence that small (genetic) changes do accumulate."

If one just looks at that quote isolated from Lewin's article as a whole, then it is senseless to say small changes do not accumulate. Obviously, if small changes have occurred, then they did indeed accumulate.

However, Lewin did provide a context to which Ayala's remark does make sense:

"The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms of microevolution (mutations and natural selection) could be extrapolated to explain the phenomenon of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear 'NO'!"

In light of this being the central question of the conference, anyone at the conference would have understood Ayala's comment to mean that "We would not have predicted stasis from population genetics, but I am now convinced from what the paleontologists say that SMALL CHANGES DO NOT ACCUMULATE" - into macroevolutionary changes. So Ayala is technically correct in saying Lewin's quote of him is not a complete sentence. Never-the-less Lewin and we know full well what Ayala meant at that time.

Mr. Arrowsmith has drawn an incorrect conclusion that Ayala has denied ever saying what Lewin accredited as saying. He made no such statement. Mr. Ayala merely and correctly pointed out that the quote standing alone does not make sense, that it is an incomplete sentence. It is simple, the paleontologists explain in considerable detail why small changes do not accumulate into macroevolutionary changes and Ayala, after taking it all in, responds in ordinary conversation talk "I am now convinced that small changes do not accumulate."

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Post #25

Post by Goat »

Bart007 wrote:Here is a response right here on Debating Christianity & Religion from several months ago: Post 18: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Microevolution vs. Macroevolution, And it was addressed to you goat! r u in need of some vitamin B-12 shots.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goat, if the quote of Francisco Ayala is a misquote, you must credit that to evolutionary scientists and eyewitness to the proceedings: Roger Lewin.

Richard Arrowsmith questioned Ayala on this quote, Ayala's response was:

"I don't know how Roger Lewin could have gotten in his notes the quotation he attributes to me. I presented a paper/lecture and spoke at various times from the floor, but I could not possibly have said (at least as a complete sentence) what Lewin attributes to me. In fact, I don't know what it means. How could small changes NOT accumulate! In any case, virtually all my evolutionary research papers evidence that small (genetic) changes do accumulate."

If one just looks at that quote isolated from Lewin's article as a whole, then it is senseless to say small changes do not accumulate. Obviously, if small changes have occurred, then they did indeed accumulate.

However, Lewin did provide a context to which Ayala's remark does make sense:

"The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms of microevolution (mutations and natural selection) could be extrapolated to explain the phenomenon of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear 'NO'!"

In light of this being the central question of the conference, anyone at the conference would have understood Ayala's comment to mean that "We would not have predicted stasis from population genetics, but I am now convinced from what the paleontologists say that SMALL CHANGES DO NOT ACCUMULATE" - into macroevolutionary changes. So Ayala is technically correct in saying Lewin's quote of him is not a complete sentence. Never-the-less Lewin and we know full well what Ayala meant at that time.

Mr. Arrowsmith has drawn an incorrect conclusion that Ayala has denied ever saying what Lewin accredited as saying. He made no such statement. Mr. Ayala merely and correctly pointed out that the quote standing alone does not make sense, that it is an incomplete sentence. It is simple, the paleontologists explain in considerable detail why small changes do not accumulate into macroevolutionary changes and Ayala, after taking it all in, responds in ordinary conversation talk "I am now convinced that small changes do not accumulate."
It sounds like you are playing games. OUt of context quotes that make something seem to say other than what is said is known as "Quote Mining" That is what Mr Arrowsmith was asking, and that is what Ayala confirmed.

To say otherwise is a gross misrepresenting of information.

I will trust Alaya over you any day.

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Post #26

Post by Bart007 »

goat wrote:
Bart007 wrote:Here is a response right here on Debating Christianity & Religion from several months ago: Post 18: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Microevolution vs. Macroevolution, And it was addressed to you goat! r u in need of some vitamin B-12 shots.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goat, if the quote of Francisco Ayala is a misquote, you must credit that to evolutionary scientists and eyewitness to the proceedings: Roger Lewin.

Richard Arrowsmith questioned Ayala on this quote, Ayala's response was:

"I don't know how Roger Lewin could have gotten in his notes the quotation he attributes to me. I presented a paper/lecture and spoke at various times from the floor, but I could not possibly have said (at least as a complete sentence) what Lewin attributes to me. In fact, I don't know what it means. How could small changes NOT accumulate! In any case, virtually all my evolutionary research papers evidence that small (genetic) changes do accumulate."

If one just looks at that quote isolated from Lewin's article as a whole, then it is senseless to say small changes do not accumulate. Obviously, if small changes have occurred, then they did indeed accumulate.

However, Lewin did provide a context to which Ayala's remark does make sense:

"The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms of microevolution (mutations and natural selection) could be extrapolated to explain the phenomenon of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear 'NO'!"

In light of this being the central question of the conference, anyone at the conference would have understood Ayala's comment to mean that "We would not have predicted stasis from population genetics, but I am now convinced from what the paleontologists say that SMALL CHANGES DO NOT ACCUMULATE" - into macroevolutionary changes. So Ayala is technically correct in saying Lewin's quote of him is not a complete sentence. Never-the-less Lewin and we know full well what Ayala meant at that time.

Mr. Arrowsmith has drawn an incorrect conclusion that Ayala has denied ever saying what Lewin accredited as saying. He made no such statement. Mr. Ayala merely and correctly pointed out that the quote standing alone does not make sense, that it is an incomplete sentence. It is simple, the paleontologists explain in considerable detail why small changes do not accumulate into macroevolutionary changes and Ayala, after taking it all in, responds in ordinary conversation talk "I am now convinced that small changes do not accumulate."
It sounds like you are playing games. OUt of context quotes that make something seem to say other than what is said is known as "Quote Mining" That is what Mr Arrowsmith was asking, and that is what Ayala confirmed.

To say otherwise is a gross misrepresenting of information.

I will trust Alaya over you any day.
Your charge of quote mining is false and a non-sequitir. Lewin got it right, in 1981, Ayala in 1991 is only quibbling over the fact that the sentence is incomplete as is. But the context back then filled in the blank. If Ayala thinks Lewin got it wrong, he should request Lewin to recant. But Ayala wont do that, because Lewin got it right.

I suppose you will keep on misinterpreting Ayala response to arrowsmith, you obviously have no evidence that macro-evolution has occurred, so cheap shots like this are probably all you can muster. Please excuse if you find me discourteous, that's how you have been to me.

Every time an evolutionist confesses to the shortcomings of evolution, they get mobbed by the worshippers of evolution. Karl Popper for decades made it clear that Evolution was not a scientific theory, and he was bombarded by the cries evolutionary dogmatist when he was 80 years old. When Colin Patterson removed the horse evolutionary series from the Bristish museum because he knew it was false, the museum was bombarded by the evolutionary dogmatists who forced the Museum to reinstate the false evolutionary horse series. And on and on it goes. Evolution is not supported by any science facts, it is upheld by the zeal of evolutionary religious dogmatists.

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Post #27

Post by Goat »

Bart007 wrote:
goat wrote:
Bart007 wrote:Here is a response right here on Debating Christianity & Religion from several months ago: Post 18: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Microevolution vs. Macroevolution, And it was addressed to you goat! r u in need of some vitamin B-12 shots.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goat, if the quote of Francisco Ayala is a misquote, you must credit that to evolutionary scientists and eyewitness to the proceedings: Roger Lewin.

Richard Arrowsmith questioned Ayala on this quote, Ayala's response was:

"I don't know how Roger Lewin could have gotten in his notes the quotation he attributes to me. I presented a paper/lecture and spoke at various times from the floor, but I could not possibly have said (at least as a complete sentence) what Lewin attributes to me. In fact, I don't know what it means. How could small changes NOT accumulate! In any case, virtually all my evolutionary research papers evidence that small (genetic) changes do accumulate."

If one just looks at that quote isolated from Lewin's article as a whole, then it is senseless to say small changes do not accumulate. Obviously, if small changes have occurred, then they did indeed accumulate.

However, Lewin did provide a context to which Ayala's remark does make sense:

"The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms of microevolution (mutations and natural selection) could be extrapolated to explain the phenomenon of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear 'NO'!"

In light of this being the central question of the conference, anyone at the conference would have understood Ayala's comment to mean that "We would not have predicted stasis from population genetics, but I am now convinced from what the paleontologists say that SMALL CHANGES DO NOT ACCUMULATE" - into macroevolutionary changes. So Ayala is technically correct in saying Lewin's quote of him is not a complete sentence. Never-the-less Lewin and we know full well what Ayala meant at that time.

Mr. Arrowsmith has drawn an incorrect conclusion that Ayala has denied ever saying what Lewin accredited as saying. He made no such statement. Mr. Ayala merely and correctly pointed out that the quote standing alone does not make sense, that it is an incomplete sentence. It is simple, the paleontologists explain in considerable detail why small changes do not accumulate into macroevolutionary changes and Ayala, after taking it all in, responds in ordinary conversation talk "I am now convinced that small changes do not accumulate."
It sounds like you are playing games. OUt of context quotes that make something seem to say other than what is said is known as "Quote Mining" That is what Mr Arrowsmith was asking, and that is what Ayala confirmed.

To say otherwise is a gross misrepresenting of information.

I will trust Alaya over you any day.
Your charge of quote mining is false and a non-sequitir. Lewin got it right, in 1981, Ayala in 1991 is only quibbling over the fact that the sentence is incomplete as is. But the context back then filled in the blank. If Ayala thinks Lewin got it wrong, he should request Lewin to recant. But Ayala wont do that, because Lewin got it right.

I suppose you will keep on misinterpreting Ayala response to arrowsmith, you obviously have no evidence that macro-evolution has occurred, so cheap shots like this are probably all you can muster. Please excuse if you find me discourteous, that's how you have been to me.

Every time an evolutionist confesses to the shortcomings of evolution, they get mobbed by the worshippers of evolution. Karl Popper for decades made it clear that Evolution was not a scientific theory, and he was bombarded by the cries evolutionary dogmatist when he was 80 years old. When Colin Patterson removed the horse evolutionary series from the Bristish museum because he knew it was false, the museum was bombarded by the evolutionary dogmatists who forced the Museum to reinstate the false evolutionary horse series. And on and on it goes. Evolution is not supported by any science facts, it is upheld by the zeal of evolutionary religious dogmatists.
What part of 'I didn't say that' didn't you understand? This is the letter Ayala made about the quote
I don't know how Roger Lewin could have gotten in his notes the quotation he attributes to me. I presented a paper/lecture and spoke at various times from the floor, but I could not possibly have said (at least as a complete sentence) what Lewin attributes to me. In fact, I don't know what it means. How could small changes NOT accumulate! In any case, virtually all my evolutionary research papers evidence that small (genetic) changes do accumulate.

The paper that I presented at the conference reported by Lewin is virtually the same that I presented in 1982 in Cambridge, at a conference commemorating the 200 [sic] anniversary of Darwin's death. It deals with the claims of "punctuated equilibrium" and how microevolutionary change relates to macroevolution. (I provide experimental results showing how one can obtain in the laboratory, as a result of the accumulation of small genetic changes, morphological changes of the magnitude observed by paleontologists and presented as evidence of punctuated equilibrium.) The paper was published as part of the conference proceedings:
Now, if you want to be in denial, go right ahead.

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Post #28

Post by Bart007 »

goat wrote:
Bart007 wrote:
goat wrote:
Bart007 wrote:Here is a response right here on Debating Christianity & Religion from several months ago: Post 18: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Microevolution vs. Macroevolution, And it was addressed to you goat! r u in need of some vitamin B-12 shots.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goat, if the quote of Francisco Ayala is a misquote, you must credit that to evolutionary scientists and eyewitness to the proceedings: Roger Lewin.

Richard Arrowsmith questioned Ayala on this quote, Ayala's response was:

"I don't know how Roger Lewin could have gotten in his notes the quotation he attributes to me. I presented a paper/lecture and spoke at various times from the floor, but I could not possibly have said (at least as a complete sentence) what Lewin attributes to me. In fact, I don't know what it means. How could small changes NOT accumulate! In any case, virtually all my evolutionary research papers evidence that small (genetic) changes do accumulate."

If one just looks at that quote isolated from Lewin's article as a whole, then it is senseless to say small changes do not accumulate. Obviously, if small changes have occurred, then they did indeed accumulate.

However, Lewin did provide a context to which Ayala's remark does make sense:

"The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms of microevolution (mutations and natural selection) could be extrapolated to explain the phenomenon of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear 'NO'!"

In light of this being the central question of the conference, anyone at the conference would have understood Ayala's comment to mean that "We would not have predicted stasis from population genetics, but I am now convinced from what the paleontologists say that SMALL CHANGES DO NOT ACCUMULATE" - into macroevolutionary changes. So Ayala is technically correct in saying Lewin's quote of him is not a complete sentence. Never-the-less Lewin and we know full well what Ayala meant at that time.

Mr. Arrowsmith has drawn an incorrect conclusion that Ayala has denied ever saying what Lewin accredited as saying. He made no such statement. Mr. Ayala merely and correctly pointed out that the quote standing alone does not make sense, that it is an incomplete sentence. It is simple, the paleontologists explain in considerable detail why small changes do not accumulate into macroevolutionary changes and Ayala, after taking it all in, responds in ordinary conversation talk "I am now convinced that small changes do not accumulate."
It sounds like you are playing games. OUt of context quotes that make something seem to say other than what is said is known as "Quote Mining" That is what Mr Arrowsmith was asking, and that is what Ayala confirmed.

To say otherwise is a gross misrepresenting of information.

I will trust Alaya over you any day.
Your charge of quote mining is false and a non-sequitir. Lewin got it right, in 1981, Ayala in 1991 is only quibbling over the fact that the sentence is incomplete as is. But the context back then filled in the blank. If Ayala thinks Lewin got it wrong, he should request Lewin to recant. But Ayala wont do that, because Lewin got it right.

I suppose you will keep on misinterpreting Ayala response to arrowsmith, you obviously have no evidence that macro-evolution has occurred, so cheap shots like this are probably all you can muster. Please excuse if you find me discourteous, that's how you have been to me.

Every time an evolutionist confesses to the shortcomings of evolution, they get mobbed by the worshippers of evolution. Karl Popper for decades made it clear that Evolution was not a scientific theory, and he was bombarded by the cries evolutionary dogmatist when he was 80 years old. When Colin Patterson removed the horse evolutionary series from the Bristish museum because he knew it was false, the museum was bombarded by the evolutionary dogmatists who forced the Museum to reinstate the false evolutionary horse series. And on and on it goes. Evolution is not supported by any science facts, it is upheld by the zeal of evolutionary religious dogmatists.
What part of 'I didn't say that' didn't you understand? This is the letter Ayala made about the quote
I don't know how Roger Lewin could have gotten in his notes the quotation he attributes to me. I presented a paper/lecture and spoke at various times from the floor, but I could not possibly have said (at least as a complete sentence) what Lewin attributes to me. In fact, I don't know what it means. How could small changes NOT accumulate! In any case, virtually all my evolutionary research papers evidence that small (genetic) changes do accumulate.

The paper that I presented at the conference reported by Lewin is virtually the same that I presented in 1982 in Cambridge, at a conference commemorating the 200 [sic] anniversary of Darwin's death. It deals with the claims of "punctuated equilibrium" and how microevolutionary change relates to macroevolution. (I provide experimental results showing how one can obtain in the laboratory, as a result of the accumulation of small genetic changes, morphological changes of the magnitude observed by paleontologists and presented as evidence of punctuated equilibrium.) The paper was published as part of the conference proceedings:
Now, if you want to be in denial, go right ahead.
You're the one who is plainly in denial. Ayala makes it clear that the sentence, when taken out of the context, is not correct. It is a fact that mutations, if they occur, will accumulate. It is also clear from the conference that the paleontologists at the conference clearly demonstrated that mutations do not accumulate into macro-evolutionary changes. This was the theme of the whole conference.

Biologist Francisco Ayala conceded this to be true at the conference and this is what Roger Lewin quoted him on. Ayala was not asked this conference question by Arrowsmith, Arrowsmith was happy with this narrow answer that allows Ayala to sidestep the issue. If you or Ayala have any examples of mutations that have accumulated into a macroevolutionary change, please present one. I do not think either of you will because macro-evolutionary changes have never occurred. You are dead wrong in your persistence goat. Give an example if you think micrevolutionary changes do accumulate into nacroevolution, or ask Ayala to do it. Something that Arrowsmith did not do when Ayala gave him that cute side step the question, answer. Put up or shut up, show me where the beef is.

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Post #29

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Bart007 wrote:
goat wrote:
Bart007 wrote:
goat wrote:
Bart007 wrote:Here is a response right here on Debating Christianity & Religion from several months ago: Post 18: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Microevolution vs. Macroevolution, And it was addressed to you goat! r u in need of some vitamin B-12 shots.

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Goat, if the quote of Francisco Ayala is a misquote, you must credit that to evolutionary scientists and eyewitness to the proceedings: Roger Lewin.

Richard Arrowsmith questioned Ayala on this quote, Ayala's response was:

"I don't know how Roger Lewin could have gotten in his notes the quotation he attributes to me. I presented a paper/lecture and spoke at various times from the floor, but I could not possibly have said (at least as a complete sentence) what Lewin attributes to me. In fact, I don't know what it means. How could small changes NOT accumulate! In any case, virtually all my evolutionary research papers evidence that small (genetic) changes do accumulate."

If one just looks at that quote isolated from Lewin's article as a whole, then it is senseless to say small changes do not accumulate. Obviously, if small changes have occurred, then they did indeed accumulate.

However, Lewin did provide a context to which Ayala's remark does make sense:

"The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms of microevolution (mutations and natural selection) could be extrapolated to explain the phenomenon of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear 'NO'!"

In light of this being the central question of the conference, anyone at the conference would have understood Ayala's comment to mean that "We would not have predicted stasis from population genetics, but I am now convinced from what the paleontologists say that SMALL CHANGES DO NOT ACCUMULATE" - into macroevolutionary changes. So Ayala is technically correct in saying Lewin's quote of him is not a complete sentence. Never-the-less Lewin and we know full well what Ayala meant at that time.

Mr. Arrowsmith has drawn an incorrect conclusion that Ayala has denied ever saying what Lewin accredited as saying. He made no such statement. Mr. Ayala merely and correctly pointed out that the quote standing alone does not make sense, that it is an incomplete sentence. It is simple, the paleontologists explain in considerable detail why small changes do not accumulate into macroevolutionary changes and Ayala, after taking it all in, responds in ordinary conversation talk "I am now convinced that small changes do not accumulate."
It sounds like you are playing games. OUt of context quotes that make something seem to say other than what is said is known as "Quote Mining" That is what Mr Arrowsmith was asking, and that is what Ayala confirmed.

To say otherwise is a gross misrepresenting of information.

I will trust Alaya over you any day.
Your charge of quote mining is false and a non-sequitir. Lewin got it right, in 1981, Ayala in 1991 is only quibbling over the fact that the sentence is incomplete as is. But the context back then filled in the blank. If Ayala thinks Lewin got it wrong, he should request Lewin to recant. But Ayala wont do that, because Lewin got it right.

I suppose you will keep on misinterpreting Ayala response to arrowsmith, you obviously have no evidence that macro-evolution has occurred, so cheap shots like this are probably all you can muster. Please excuse if you find me discourteous, that's how you have been to me.

Every time an evolutionist confesses to the shortcomings of evolution, they get mobbed by the worshippers of evolution. Karl Popper for decades made it clear that Evolution was not a scientific theory, and he was bombarded by the cries evolutionary dogmatist when he was 80 years old. When Colin Patterson removed the horse evolutionary series from the Bristish museum because he knew it was false, the museum was bombarded by the evolutionary dogmatists who forced the Museum to reinstate the false evolutionary horse series. And on and on it goes. Evolution is not supported by any science facts, it is upheld by the zeal of evolutionary religious dogmatists.
What part of 'I didn't say that' didn't you understand? This is the letter Ayala made about the quote
I don't know how Roger Lewin could have gotten in his notes the quotation he attributes to me. I presented a paper/lecture and spoke at various times from the floor, but I could not possibly have said (at least as a complete sentence) what Lewin attributes to me. In fact, I don't know what it means. How could small changes NOT accumulate! In any case, virtually all my evolutionary research papers evidence that small (genetic) changes do accumulate.

The paper that I presented at the conference reported by Lewin is virtually the same that I presented in 1982 in Cambridge, at a conference commemorating the 200 [sic] anniversary of Darwin's death. It deals with the claims of "punctuated equilibrium" and how microevolutionary change relates to macroevolution. (I provide experimental results showing how one can obtain in the laboratory, as a result of the accumulation of small genetic changes, morphological changes of the magnitude observed by paleontologists and presented as evidence of punctuated equilibrium.) The paper was published as part of the conference proceedings:
Now, if you want to be in denial, go right ahead.
You're the one who is plainly in denial. Ayala makes it clear that the sentence, when taken out of the context, is not correct. It is a fact that mutations, if they occur, will accumulate. It is also clear from the conference that the paleontologists at the conference clearly demonstrated that mutations do not accumulate into macro-evolutionary changes. This was the theme of the whole conference.

Biologist Francisco Ayala conceded this to be true at the conference and this is what Roger Lewin quoted him on. Ayala was not asked this conference question by Arrowsmith, Arrowsmith was happy with this narrow answer that allows Ayala to sidestep the issue. If you or Ayala have any examples of mutations that have accumulated into a macroevolutionary change, please present one. I do not think either of you will because macro-evolutionary changes have never occurred. You are dead wrong in your persistence goat. Give an example if you think micrevolutionary changes do accumulate into nacroevolution, or ask Ayala to do it. Something that Arrowsmith did not do when Ayala gave him that cute side step the question, answer. Put up or shut up, show me where the beef is.
Yes, I have an example. The development of the ear.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17647409/

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