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Campfire Act I
In Order of The Unfolding[/font][/center]
PAGE 1
Manu Iti tells why he is at the Encampment.
Manu Iti: ...As to what brings me out this way...it is the best place I know to come when I require a clear channel of communication with The Mother. Like a spring cleaning opportunity - blows out the cobwebs and puts a spring back in my step.
And you?
Callum say's he has similar reasons for being at the encampment and wants to know more about The Mother Manu Iti mentioned.
Callum: My reason is pretty similar, although I don't know this Mother you speak of. I'd love to hear more about her.
Manu Iti first mentions The Silence.
Manu Iti: Out here among The Silence my senses are conflated into Being.
Callum confesses to needing nature and The Silence
Callum: Yes, my new friend, nature does an excellent job of confronting us with much that we often neglect. Often we don't want to hear what the silence has to say, but I know that I need it more than I seek.
PAGE 2
Manu Iti sings a song for his new aquantance.
Manu Iti:The Mother has laid upon my heart to sing this song which she inspired me to write many years ago...see if you can identify Her within the words Cullum.
I named the song "Dreams Of A Fallen Angel"
Callum compliments the song after an inner analysis.
Manu Iti's voice is a pleasant sound to my ears and my imagination takes off at the words.
A history of human abdication to take care of the earth and each other, first from ancient stories and then reluctantly upon my own bitterness and even more bitter silences. Then Jesus comes into thought at "Thy Will Be Done." I am enjoying the flow of this song and the accompanying howl seems to fit right in. Then, a mix of our sub-human cruelty and Jesus' great love. The rescuing kingdom He brings. And the melody brings in a more holy stillness as the thoughts continue to turn over each other. I then feel a pull to let go of my analytical mind and enjoy the song for its beauty, lingering still a moment after the singing is done. Eventually, I break the silence.
Callum: That was beautiful.
Manu Iti gives his own interpretation of the song
Callum: "Perhaps that forgiveness is where the Mother resides"
He is right of course...
Manu Iti: Yes my Friend - the obvious is always worth acknowledging - The Mother is also The Earth, The Heart of The Earth, and The Dragon...
...the song is less about retribution and more about restoration...about understanding deep processes which have taken eons to unfold, and the part we humans play in that unfolding, for we too, are aspects of The Mother
Callum then asks for clarification of the identities of The Fallen Angel and The Dragon mentioned in the song.
He also mentions being influenced by Christianity.
Manu first speaks of the Demiurge and also mentions being influenced by Christianity.
Callum speaks of The Demiurge as playing a game to which Manu Iti expands upon
Manu Iti: From our Human perspective, it certainly appears to be some kind of a game being played, I agree.
We have to acknowledge that long before 'Humans', The Demiurge existed, and is the reason for why this universe exists.
We can make the assumption that it may be that before the creation of the Human form, the concept of 'playing games' did not exist for the Demiurge as it was simply doing what a Demiurge does.
and also introduces ideas of how conscious interactions are types of Role-Playing, the need for forgiveness, how humans tend to be judgemental and how this effects things...
Callum detects different interpretations between he and Manu Iti's views on forgiveness and judgement
PAGE 3
Callum: I would have called myself a Christian growing up, but it wasn't until later that I began to fit its meaning. I think we mean different things by that term, though. There is one thing...
I laugh at my choice of words immediately and rub my hands together.
Callum: ...well, one thing that pushes to the front of my mind. I'm trying to grasp how two things fit together. You talk of us not judging one another, but then say forgiveness is the way out. Forgiveness, it seems to me, necessarily includes a judgment. We forgive those who have wronged us.
Manu Iti attempts an answer as to how forgiveness and judgement 'fit' together and Callum then wants clarification on a point
Callum: What do you mean when you say the "lens of judgmentalism"?
Manu Iti attempts to clarify which Manu provides then Callum asks
Callum: But how can one forgive without reaching a verdict that they have been wronged?
Manu Iti Replies
Manu Iti: Then one would be in the position of not having to forgive. Forgiveness would not enter into the field of inquiry...
I pause for affect...the frog croaks once more...I continue...
Manu Iti: Therefore, if one does not judge, one does not have to engage with forgiveness...but that was not what my question to you was asking.
The answer to my question is that there is no actual requirement for those who are judgmental to build into that, the act of forgiving.
The Ruru makes His first Appearence and stays on throughout Act I assisting Manu Iti with formulating answers
Callum still thinks that he and Manu Iti are talking at cross purposes
Callum: I think I follow you there, but there still is the possibility that we are talking on differently nuanced levels. I'm just not sure I would want to cross over into a place where no judgment occurs. If a child were kidnapped there, no one would judge that action as wrong, yet damage would have been done.
Manu also speaks about being created with the understanding he has always existed in his Universe and infers that Callum is not sure exactly where he presently is.
Manu Iti: I have been here forever, and know this place intimately. There are no secrets for me to uncover here...
PAGE 4
Manu Iti informs Callum of the "Blank Slate" event which happened while they were interacting, and that he no longer can see Callum, but only hear his voice.
He also infers that Callum does not really understand exactly where he is.
Callum questions Manu Iti on the reference to the "Bridge" and also asks him to clarify the inference.
Manu Iti asks Callum if he would describe how he sees Manu Iti, and describes how he saw Callum and asks if the description is correct.
Manu Iti informs Callum that they both were created and placed in this universe, by different creators.
Callum responds by pointing out that there is no reason to believe Manu Iti's claim.
Manu Iti then speaks about simulations as creations where characters are placed into by the simulation creators.
Then he shifts to say that they both are not really 'created' but that form gives them that impression.
Manu Iti also says that he is unable - at that time - to think of any evidence to support his assertions...
He names their creators and say's of them;
Manu Iti: Wiremu and The Tanager have beliefs systems which are not aligned and this interferes with the communication process.
Manu Iti informs Callum that the universe their creators reside is "A type of prison".
Manu Iti offers a tentative type of 'evidence' which might help convince Callum he is telling the truth.
Manu Iti: Wiremu tells me that you cannot hear The Ruru speaking to me...would that be correct?
If it is, then that should count as some kind of evidence that I am telling Truth.
PAGE 5
Callum is unconvinced by the tentative evidence Manu Iti offers.
He adds that if it was true, then he and Manu Iti are 'non-entities' because they "have no will".
Manu Iti claims that Callum could learn to build a similar connection of relationship with Callum's creator "The Tanager" as Manu Iti has with his creator, "Wiremu"
Manu Iti is inspired to mention Callum's "back-story" a a means of providing evidence which might help convince Callum that Manu Iti is telling The Truth.
Manu Iti inserts the idea that Callum can commune with The Tanager as Manu Iti does with Wiremu
Manu Iti is given more evidence by Wiremu which might help Callum accept what Manu Iti has been saying.
Manu Iti: Wiremu tells me that as you were approaching this Campsite, you had a slight concern that you might be heading into danger...something about how people are nowadays, and you might get shot...and then... maybe laughed at your concern and thought about your Mother...
Is this true Callum? Did this happen as I report it to you?
Callum agrees that it is true and this helps him accept The Truth Manu Iti has been telling.
Callum then asks what more Wiremu has to say through Manu Iti. He also acknowledges he understands why Wiremu would create the place for the story, trying to make his view more understandable.
PAGE 6
Alpha Wolf Entity make his appearance
Callum brings into the conversation 'The Nature of The Mother' and shares his concerns with Manu Iti
Manu Iti responds by focussing upon non-judgmentalism and forgiveness in an attempt to steer away from using these devices as a mean to examine The Mothers Nature.
Manu Iti tells the story of The Non-Theist Parachutist. After doing so, he tells Callum that he hopes the story will help Callum understand how judgmentalism works in relation to all individuals.
Callum does not understand the relevance of the story in relation to his concerns regarding The Mothers Nature.
Manu Iti begins to understand that the more he tries to help Callum see from Manu Iti's position, the more confused Callum responds...
Manu Iti changes approach and tries to get Callum to place himself in the postiion of The Mother.
Manu Iti: Let me ask you a question Callum...If you were an All Knowing Potential Creator existing alone in Wholeness, and you wanted to experience NOT knowing anything, would you create anything which would allow you to do so, if you knew that you would forevermore be lost to your true self?
Let me provide you with my answer.
"No, I would not."
Therein, if I did create such a place to experience, it must have been because I knew that I would regain full knowledge of myself at some stage while within said creation.
Callum admits he understands in part what Manu Iti is saying about The Mother, and also tells Manu Iti that The Tanager is perhaps withholding information from Callum.
Callum: I agree with you Manu Iti. If the Mother wanted to experience not knowing anything, she would only do so if she knew she would regain full knowledge at some future stage. The Tanager has not allowed me to see why the Mother would want to experience not knowing anything, though, if The Tanager even understands.
Manu Iti is puzzled by Callums response. He then focuses on a long involved conversation with the Ruru in the hope that it will help make sense of what Callum said.
Eventually Manu Iti speaks to Callum, more words to do with The Mother in the form of questions which might help Callum understand The Mother perspective and actions as being motivated by Love.
The Ruru also reminded Manu Iti of another song Wiremu wrote and asks if Callum would like to hear it. Callum agrees to hear the song.
PAGE 7
At this point The Tanager messages William his concern regarding judgement before he continues with the Role-Play interaction.
@Link
The interaction goes on for a few posts in the Sharing In The Building thread and the we resume our Role-playing.
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Back to The Campfire[/center]
This time Callum has nothing to say about the second song Manu Iti sings to him. Callums thoughts are focsued upon Manu Iti's idea of The Mother, which is so unlike The Tanagers and what Christianity teaches humans about The Nature of GOD.
Callum: What you have asked me rests on the judgment that The Mother is singular, which is unlike the Christian conception of God The Tanager has provided me with. The Tanager tells me that this conception is not of his design, so it exists in his and Wiremu's world as well. But let us assume that your judgment is correct, that GOD is not multi-personal.
Manu Iti thinks that Callum is conflating Judgement with discernment.
Manu Iti: Being discerning is simply accepting what is, without judgement. That was what I was trying to convey to you with my songs.
Manu Iti also attempts to get Callum interested in the serendipity associated with the choice of names for the Characters Wiremu and The Tanager use. Manu Iti purposefully uses the expression of disernment. "We Could Discern" rather than "we could Judge" in the hope that Callum might understand the difference...
Manu Iti:We could discern that the choice of names our creators gave us, was significant as coincidence. Serendipity. Divinely inspired even.
Others might judge it as co-conspiracy...something Wiremu and Tanager cooked up together to make it appear that way.
Manu Iti thinks that The Tanager is withholding information from Callum, which is making it difficult to explain thing to Callum adequately.
Manu Iti is prompted by Wiremu to reveal to Callum how The Ruru is given its Words, which are injected into the Role-Play situation. Wiremu thinks that it might help if Callum understands that The Tanager withholds that information, as the information might also assist Callum in understanding.
Manu Iti: The Ruru speaks to me of an experience Wiremu had once...
Wiremu would like me to tell you that although you do not hear The Ruru, he knows that The Tanager can read the words The Ruru speaks.
He wants me to explain the process involved in giving The Ruru its 'voice.
Callum suddenly begins to hear The Ruru - but not fully...he also starts to see unusual things happen
Manu Iti quickly surmises that Callum is beginning to create things and realizes that Callum is not fully aware that he is co-creator, creating these things with The Tanager...
Callum informs Manu Iti that the The Tanager wishes for Callum to explain the symbolism in the newly created things...
Manu understands then that The Tanager is beginning to make a more initmate connection with Callum.
Callum continues to claim that Manu Iti is making Judgments and that Callum cannot understand why such a place exists where the rule is "Make No Judgements" when Callum maintains that Manu Iti is making Judgements.
Callum: One thing that remains confusing is why you seem to say rejecting your claims as true...what I have done...is a judgment, but accepting them as true...what you have done...is not a judgment. You seem to be playing with words and holding a double standard. I must be missing something. Can you clear that up for me, my friend?
Manu Iti Responds;
Manu Iti: My Friend. I am in no way expecting you to accept how I see The Mother and the creation. Nor am I judging you for not doing so.
I simply told you of this place and mentioned The Mother and you wanted to know more.
Callum also introduces that his understanding is that The Mother created humans "out of nothing" rather than of Herself.
This follows a lot of discourse on the, as Manu Iti thinks it is a fallacy to introduce an idea which has no correlation with what exists, and cannot be shown to exist.
He argues that introducing such a concept is unnecessary.
PAGE 8
Callum contends that Manu Iti's version of The Mother cannot be Loving. She can only be evil.
Callum: A being that is all-knowing and all-loving, logically cannot choose that which is not loving. If The Mother only will create given an assurance of restoration, then this means she sees acts of harm, separation, etc. as unloving, as evil. The Mother cannot choose the separation and harm of becoming many offspring and still have been all-loving.
Manu Iti sees Callums reasoning as being based in Judgmentalism.
Manu Iti: Ah - now I see better what it is you are saying Callum. The distinction isn't in whether The Mother Created, but the process involved.
You say you cannot accept my understanding of that process, apparently because you verdict this as unloving and therefore as evil.
Unicus the Unicorn comes into the encampment and stays for a brief time.
Callum explains his understanding of freedom and actualization. While it goes some way to helping Manu Iti understand Callums position, it still relies upon the idea that The Mother created her off-spring from a mysterious 'nothing' which was not part of Her.
Manu Iti also reveals to Callum that;
Manu Iti: Well Callum - as I previously explained to you a little bit...this place you find yourself within is The Hub of The Hologram Universes.
The nature of this place responds to the individuals beliefs and this is why, although you think you see me - as you have described me - you yourself manifest what I look like for your own perceptions.
PAGE 9
Callum: The relationship between divine concept and objective actualization may be an important difference of our beliefs. One thought races back towards freedom. If one must actualize all they conceive, there is a lack of freedom, at least in one sense. In my view, there is still that freedom because The Mother knows more concepts than She freely chooses to actualize. On your view, it seems that The Mother does not choose to create because She sees a good outcome; for as soon as She thinks of separation, it must come regardless of the outcome.
Manu Iti understands that the idea of having a creation which is separate from the Creator allows for that Creator to remain 'unsullied' as it were, since The Problem of Evil exists for all those who are Judgmental.
Thus one cannot have an idea of GOD which is directly linked with that problem, which is why Callum is insisting in his theology being correct while Manu Iti's is sullied.
Manu Iti then tries a different approach in an attempt to help Callum appreciate what Manu Iti means.
Manu Iti:We might agree that the three stages of this process are;
1: The Beginning
2: The Middle
3: The End.
And
Manu Iti: Your argument, with the addition of having to defend "nothing" as logical in order to try and fix the evil problem, stems from one aspect of the process...that being the Middle.
Manu Iti also mentions that The Mother is right there with The Children, She is literally Her Children.
Manu Iti: The Mother - of course - understands the evil problem and that is why we also have knowledge of the solution. Making the Creator a separate and non responsible entity only increases the separation and affords no means in which to "build a bridge and get over it." It is a tough ask over a scary chasm.
Manu Iti knows that Callum has so far avoided answering questions as to why Callum regards certain things as 'evil' and give his own interpretation of what he thinks evil really is.
Manu Iti: Evil really then appears as it truly is - the product of ignorance which cannot remain indefinitely because "knowledge" is inevitable. We are free to work that our in each of our own ways and means...with a little help from our friends...invisible, imagined, or otherwise...it is a real...
Manu Iti once more spends much time interacting with The Ruru rather than with Callum, as he tries to understand how he can best transmit his theology without being judged or accused of judging, by Callum.
PAGE 10
Callum persist with The Problem of Evil, and Manu continues to attempt to get Callum to convey exactly what it is that makes something necessary to call it 'evil'
Manu Iti: If I placed before you two glasses of water - one labelled "From the Salty Sea" and one labelled "From the Crystal Clear River" and asked you which one you would choose as the symbol for 'evil', on what basis would you choose?
and
Manu Iti: I wonder too, what you might tell me regarding the image within that envelope...what does it convey to you Callum?{ Spoiler...}
Callum's answers appear to be creating more barriers rather than being helpful to Manu Iti understanding where Callum is at in relation to 'evil' and his apparent need to label things as such.
Callum: It matters not to me what glass would symbolize evil. Let's say the crystal clear river.
Manu Iti: In relation to my question regarding the Water, Callum...I asked, simply to try and get an understanding of how you determine what is evil and what is good.
Perhaps you would like to rethink your answer...or explain to me why specifically you chose the water from the Crystal Clear River to represent 'evil' and - along with that - why it does not matter to you.
Manu gets no further help from Callum in clarifying why he identifies certain things as 'evil'.
The conversation then spirals into repetitive nuances. Manu Iti is inspired by The Ruru to bring another aspect of Serendipity into the conversation to do with words-strings and Mathematics.
Manu Iti: As you might agree - the strange coincidence shared by the word-strings is relevant to much of what we are overall presently in discussion about...and of course, you can receive from that, what you will...
Unfortunately Callum takes the position that he sees no significance in the word-strings and asks;
Callum: I see nothing strange or important in the word-strings, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything. Tell me why you think it strange and important.
Callum also things that the Judgement comes from The Mother at the beginning position rather than as Manu Iti states, it comes from the middle position.
Callum: You say that judgment cannot be made from the middle position. I don't think I'm doing that. the Mother makes the judgment in the beginning by knowing the end. The Mother judges separation and harm as a necessary evil to get the greater good. Why is that evil necessary?
Manu offers an analogy to do with reading a story from a book
Manu Iti: The potential and the actual are not regarded by The Mothers position, to being different or separate.
Think of it in terms of a story book. Would you only read the middle part of the story and conclude that it is separate from the Beginning and the End - that the Middle separates the beginning from the end, and therefore the separation is real?
Callum clarifies his assertion regarding 'potential' as like 'Nothing'.
Callum: But to come to your direct question to me (and re-ask any I have unintentionally ignored or answered in a confusing way), a potential state is something that could be but currently is not. If it is some actual thing, then it is an actual state, not a potential state.
At this point, Penny Tuppence enters the situation.
Manu iti suspects that his attempts at continued trying to explain to Callum has only resulted in Callum being overloaded with information and thus unable to easily comprehend and assimilate a strange and difficult idea.
Manu also understand that this is created by a barrier contructed by Callum's beliefs - as injected into him by The Tanager.
Again Manu Iti explains to Callum why it is important for Callum to clearly say why Callum thinks anything as 'evil'.
Manu Iti: The main reason I ask is because if a Creator creates beings from a 'nothing' which is not from itself, and sets those beings within an environment - presumably also created from the same 'nothing' - and expects those beings to not express 'evil' but to 'be like its Creator' and to judge them on that and reward or punish accordingly
- not that you have mentioned any specific fates which can be dished out -
...my questions naturally have to be...
"Why do you see evil in my version and Love in your own? Where exactly is that Love visible?"
PAGE 11
The 'Wall' Barrier is then discussed between them, and Manu Iti tweeks his analogy from 'climbing over the wall' to 'seeing through a Gateway in the wall"
The Wall representing The Problem of Evil and the accompanying Judgements regarding that.
Callum then explain more fully his idea of The Mother as a constrast to Manu Iti's, which he say's reminds him of a poem he once wrote
Callum: In your version, it looks like The Mother views separation and harm as evil, and then commits that evil Herself. She doesn't create Offspring who may choose separation and harm, but the creation of Offspring is separation and harm. This is justified because separation will go away eventually and give way to a greater good that could not be had otherwise. I think it could be had otherwise, though.
A poem I once wrote is coming to mind that this reminds me of that I could share, if you would want. I will not add to your harm by singing it.
Once again Manu Iti tries to correct Callum regarding Callum's thinking that Manu Iti version of The Mother "views separation and harm as evil"
He also spends some time speaking the anaglogy of the human brain being able to be rewired.
Manu Iti also suggests that there are unnatural things which Callum introduces in order to give some kind of 'logic' to the theology of The Mother Creator.
Manu Iti:When you speak of your idea of The Mother you have to introduce unnecessary additions to what is, in order for it to appear to be logical.
This unnatural forcing of an explanation which allows for the idea of a Creator Being to be separate from Her creation.
For me, this is surplus to requirement, because it comes about through a lack of ability to accept what is so one injects unrealistic alternatives as a means of attempting to force into nature, the unnatural.
Callum then recites his poem which he said Manu Iti's version of The Mother reminded him of. In that light, Manu finds the poem very unflattering to say the least. But it does give him extra insight regarding Callum's position on the matter, which Manu Iti finds helpful...
Manu Iti: Thank you for sharing your poem and answering some more of my questions Callum...It helps me to see that you have interpreted most all of the various ways I have attempted to explain my position - incorrectly.
Callum answers Manu Iti's concern that if the Off-Spring were not from The Mother, then they couldn't really be regarded as Her Children.
Callum: You speak of my view of the Mother not really being a Mother at all because it comes from something that is not her. Well, half the DNA is the father's is it not? Humans, in my view, are physical and spiritual. Dirt with the breath of life.
But even if you view this as analogical to adoption, I see nothing of pretense in the parent's love for their adopted children. And I certainly have not said that the Mother will only accept the children that are good enough, those that perfectly live out how they were intended. I said the Mother wants to come alongside her children and help them live the best life possible. In fact, that they can only do so if they allow the Mother to come alongside.
At this point Manu Iti decides that he requires "Time Out" from the conversation. He give Callum a book which contains all the words and narration of their whole conversation to date, asks Callum to read it because all Callum's questions to Manu Iti have been answered and are contained within the book.
With that, Manu Iti leaves the encampment with The Ruru and Penny Tupence, and heads for King Frog Pond to enjoy The Silence.
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