The Evidence War

[chrispalasz]

Please take the time to read this entire post.

This thread is created for posts that:

1. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity holds the Truth about God and humanity.

2. Show evidence supporting the view that Christianity does not hold the truth about God and humanity.

Evidence posted must be according to one of the two definitions, or it will not be deemed sufficient as evidence. All debate arising from posted evidence should be addressed using counter-evidence [counter-evidence defined as evidence that goes against or attempts to falsify or discredit evidence already posted].

Evidence, on this thread, is defined as follows:

1. Of or having to do with a material object that demonstrates, makes clear, or ascertains the truth of the very fact or point in issue;

2. A matter of record, or writing, or by the testimony of witnesses, enabling one to pronounce with certainty; concerning the truth of any matter in dispute.

[bernee51]

Since we're talking about the Bible in this vein we should also bring up prophecies that point towards a truth. In the gospels we have Jesus very specifically predicting the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem and the sacking of the city. Jesus death predated the destruction of Jerusalem by 40 years and the gospels were all written a decade or two before the event(except John which was written after).

Funny - I was always under the impression that Jesus was using the temple as a metaphor for his own destruction and consequent second coming.

Given that in the same discusion he stated something along the lines that a generation would not pass before the end of times, it sort of leaves his alleged prophecy coming up short.



In 70AD, the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple which was a world reknowned landmark. The Jewish uprising which brought on the vicious response was suicidal, since it was claimed to be instigated by a messianic movement. When you kill a bunch of Romans in the belief that the Messiah is about to lead you forward, then he doesn't show up, you are in for a world of hurt.

After 70 AD, there was never another Jewish sacrifice in Jerusalem and the surviving Jews were dispersed around the world.

The Jewish historian Josephus was an eyewitness to the war. The gospel authorship dates are in the bible as well as the approximate date of Jesus' death.[/quote]

[richic]

Funny - I was always under the impression that Jesus was using the temple as a metaphor for his own destruction and consequent second coming.

Given that in the same discusion he stated something along the lines that a generation would not pass before the end of times, it sort of leaves his alleged prophecy coming up short.

I don't agree with your statement that Jesus was using a metaphor for his own life. If there was a metaphor for the Temple it was that the old covenant including sacrifices and the power of the JEwish priesthood would be destroyed. Jesus spent his time in his teachings repudiating the symbols and false preaching of the corrupt religious officials of that time.

His statements regarding the Temple and Jerusalem were pretty direct and succinct.

From Matthew 24:
'when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

Luke 21:20: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize her desolation is near....because these are the days of vengeance, so that all things that are written will be fulfilled ....and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

They also proved to be True.

In speaking of the "end of times" he may have been speaking of the Jews. I don't know, but I will try to find out.

[Lotan]

I don't agree with your statement that Jesus was using a metaphor for his own life.

Me neither. The author of Mark created the story when the temple was destroyed as a metaphor for Jesus' ressurection. It's unlikely in the extreme that Jesus said any such thing.
The temple was the connection to god for Judaists. When it was destroyed, Jesus became the new connection. Note that Jesus says he can raise it back up in three days. It's not hard to fulfill a prophecy written after the fact.
An excellent discussion of this subject can be found in Saint Saul: A Skeleton Key To The Historical Jesus by Donald Harmon Akenson.

[samuelbb7]

Daniel predicted when JESUS would come and that he would die. Daniel also predicted that Rome would fall and no universal nation take it's place.

In Daniel 9:20-27 seventy weeks of years are predicted or 490 years. The starting decree is in 457 BC and 49 years latte in 408 BC Jerusalem was rebuilt. Then in 27 AD Jesus was baptized and began His three and one half year ministry. In the midst or the middle of the seventh week he was killed. Three and one half years latter stephen was killed and Gentiles began receiving gentiles.

Rome was predicted by the Iron legs of Daniel 2 and the nightmarish beast of Daniel7.

[richic]

The temple was the connection to god for Judaists. When it was destroyed, Jesus became the new connection. Note that Jesus says he can raise it back up in three days. It's not hard to fulfill a prophecy written after the fact.
An excellent discussion of this subject can be found in Saint Saul: A Skeleton Key To The Historical Jesus by Donald Harmon Akenson.

But the gospels were written before the destruction of the temple and Jesus died a generation before the destruction, so its not after the fact.

[ST88]

Daniel predicted when JESUS would come and that he would die. Daniel also predicted that Rome would fall and no universal nation take it's place.

In Daniel 9:20-27 seventy weeks of years are predicted or 490 years. The starting decree is in 457 BC and 49 years latte in 408 BC Jerusalem was rebuilt. Then in 27 AD Jesus was baptized and began His three and one half year ministry. In the midst or the middle of the seventh week he was killed. Three and one half years latter stephen was killed and Gentiles began receiving gentiles.

Rome was predicted by the Iron legs of Daniel 2 and the nightmarish beast of Daniel7.

Hi, samuelbb7:

Could you provide the textual reference to these events? We are not all as well-versed to have committed these to memory, and it would be good if you could provide the places where these are mentioned.

[Lotan]

But the gospels were written before the destruction of the temple and Jesus died a generation before the destruction, so its not after the fact.

If you believe that, then it's all quite miraculous. Many (liberal) bible scholars and historians date the writing of Mark to around 70 CE with Matthew and Luke and John following.

[richic]

If you believe that, then it's all quite miraculous. Many (liberal) bible scholars and historians date the writing of Mark to around 70 CE with Matthew and Luke and John following.

Do you know how they arrive at that date? It's seems quite convenient. Are they unbiased?

[Lotan]

They're not driven by religious belief, if that's what you mean. Why do so many Christians assume that science (in this case history) that doesn't agree with their beliefs is motivated by some anti- Christian agenda?

[chrispalasz]

Lotan wrote: They're not driven by religious belief, if that's what you mean. Why do so many Christians assume that science (in this case history) that doesn't agree with their beliefs is motivated by some anti- Christian agenda?

It's more like a stereotype. You disagree with it? I think it's safe to say that it's very accurate. People that investigate science with their lives are less likely to accept the supernatural. Even if they did accept the supernatural, they would never include that in their analysis. Only offstage and behind the curtain.