Silly question? Maybe...

[Snoozey`]

If God gives us free will, which I have believed it so, then why during the plague on Egypt did God harden the Pharaoh's heart? Technically you cannot call that free will, am I correct?

Secondly which parts of the Bible are WE suppose to take literally and not-literally? Telling me your views on it might help a bit.

Thanks for the inputs.

[achilles12604]

If God gives us free will, which I have believed it so, then why during the plague on Egypt did God harden the Pharaoh's heart? Technically you cannot call that free will, am I correct?

Secondly which parts of the Bible are WE suppose to take literally and not-literally? Telling me your views on it might help a bit.

Thanks for the inputs.

Wow is that all? What a couple of easy questions to answer . . . .

um. . . . . .

errr . . . . .





Questions like these are what makes religion so interesting huh? Ok I'll do what I can in my own meek manner.

First Question - lets pull up the scriptures
For this I will be using the NIV version and Young's literal translation so as to compare the two.

Ex 7
3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you.

3`And I harden the heart of Pharaoh, and have multiplied My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt,

13 Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

13and the heart of Pharaoh is strong, and he hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken.

14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go.

14And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `The heart of Pharaoh hath been hard, he hath refused to send the people away;

22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said. 23 Instead, he turned and went into his palace, and did not take even this to heart.

22And the scribes of Egypt do so with their flashings, and the heart of Pharaoh is strong, and he hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken, 23and Pharaoh turneth and goeth in unto his house, and hath not set his heart even to this;

Ex 8
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

15And Pharaoh seeth that there hath been a respite, and he hath hardened his heart, and hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken.

19 The magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said.

19and the scribes say unto Pharaoh, `It [is] the finger of God;' and the heart of Pharaoh is strong, and he hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken.

32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.

32and Pharaoh hardeneth his heart also at this time, and hath not sent the people away.

Ex 9
7 Pharaoh sent men to investigate and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.

7and Pharaoh sendeth, and lo, not even one of the cattle of Israel hath died, and the heart of Pharaoh is hard, and he hath not sent the people away.

12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

12And Jehovah strengtheneth the heart of Pharaoh, and he hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken unto Moses.

34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.

34and Pharaoh seeth that the rain hath ceased, and the hail and the voices, and he continueth to sin, and hardeneth his heart, he and his servants;

Ex 10
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them

1And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Go in unto Pharaoh, for I have declared hard his heart, and the heart of his servants, so that I set these My signs in their midst,

7 Pharaoh's officials said to him, "How long will this man be a snare to us? Let the people go, so that they may worship the LORD their God. Do you not yet realize that Egypt is ruined?"

7And the servants of Pharaoh say unto him, `Until when doth this [one] become a snare to us? send the men away, and they serve Jehovah their God; knowest thou not yet that Egypt hath perished?'

20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

20and Jehovah strengtheneth the heart of Pharaoh, and he hath not sent the sons of Israel away.

27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. 28 Pharaoh said to Moses, "Get out of my sight! Make sure you do not appear before me again! The day you see my face you will die."

27And Jehovah strengtheneth the heart of Pharaoh, and he hath not been willing to send them away; 28and Pharaoh saith to him, `Go from me, take heed to thyself, add not to see my face, for in the day thou seest my face thou diest;'

Ex 11
9 The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

9And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Pharaoh doth not hearken unto you, so as to multiply My wonders in the land of Egypt;' 10and Moses and Aaron have done all these wonders before Pharaoh, and Jehovah strengtheneth Pharaoh's heart, and he hath not sent the sons of Israel out of his land.

OK there are all the quotes I can find on the subject.

Now the first thing that REALLY jumped out at me was in Exodus 10 . . . .

Ex 10
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them

1And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Go in unto Pharaoh, for I have declared hard his heart, and the heart of his servants, so that I set these My signs in their midst,

7 Pharaoh's officials said to him, "How long will this man be a snare to us? Let the people go, so that they may worship the LORD their God. Do you not yet realize that Egypt is ruined?"

7And the servants of Pharaoh say unto him, `Until when doth this [one] become a snare to us? send the men away, and they serve Jehovah their God; knowest thou not yet that Egypt hath perished?'

Notice here that Even though God hardened the hearts of the officials, they still tried to get Pharaoh to let Moses go. This is extremely important because it is a clear illustration of the differences between the heart, and free will.

In my opinion, the heart is not the same as free will. Paul writes that our flesh has wicked desires but the holy spirit within us is stronger than those desires. I think this is ultimately the same thing that is happening here. God is either allowing or causing Pharaoh to feel his own pride and selfishness and then Pharaoh uses his will to decide to reject God's desires. Notice that half the time Pharaoh hardens his own heart. He indulges his natural heartfelt desire to maintain selfish control of the Israelites.

At no time does God interject his will onto Pharaoh. He might have caused Pharaoh to experience his own selfish desires but I don't know if I even hold this view. I think it is acceptable however based on the free will stance. My own personal view is that God allowed Pharaoh to feel as evil and selfish and powerful as he wanted which ultimately resulted in his will's decision.

Now if these passages meant that God replaced Pharaoh's free will with his own, then the officials should never have been able to urge pharaoh to let the Israelites go after God hardened their hearts as well. This is important because it clearly shows that despite having hardened hearts, they still possessed the ability to decide for themselves what to do.

Now. On to question two.

What parts of the bible to take literally? Well here is how I judge this. I first examine the world. I take into account science. Second I take into account my understanding of the supernatural. I then take into account the history of the passage in question. Then I decide based on what I know.

Examples:

Matthew's rendition of Jesus death.

Matthew writes that Jesus died, there was a terrific earthquake and many holy people were brought to life.

Literal or otherwise?

First, the world view is of course that dead people don't rise. However Jesus did rise so it is possible. Then I look at other writings of the time. Not one other source mentions dead people coming to life. Science is of course against such an event. However based on the supernatural it would be possible. Lastly I take into consideration the history of the passage.

There is a style of writing known as Apocalyptical writings which was used for hundreds of years by the Jews in particular. This style of writings can be found in other works they posses, both religious and otherwise (google it, I also provided links SOMEWHERE on this forum but I certainly can't remember where). This style of writings was used when a tremendous event took place which people should take note of. (Like Jesus atoning death). This style of writing usually included tremendous and otherwise unheard of events like many holy people rising or the sky falling or the heavens being torn apart.

So, I made my choice that this particular section is not meant to be taken literally because:
1) there is absolutely no multiple attestation even among the other Gospels
2) This event goes against the norm
3) This event had no real theological value
4) This event can be accounted for with an understanding of the writings style of the day.

Now, on the other hand Jesus healings are another matter.

1) We have multiple attestation of these events not only in the Gospel accounts, but also in secular accounts.

2) While it goes against the natural, it is possible with the supernatural and it definitely had supernatural value as it attested to Jesus divine nature

3) This event explains and fits in with the rest of the historical account of Jesus (ie a reason why the leaders wanted him dead)

So despite the fact that this event would normally go against nature, there is enough evidence for the other side to where I can accept this as factual.


There are times where I am in the middle.

Hell for example. Hell is unable to be measured by science. Its history is simply unknown according to history. Unless someone is there, there is no way to collect information about Hell.

Now do I believe in Hell . . . yes. Can I prove it or even make a solid argument for its existence? Not really. Am I sure about the details of Hell and those in it? No.

So you can see that at least for me, I measure things with certain tools, in a certain order to determine what is literal and what is not.

Ok I hope I helped some. If not then I still learned a bit about Moses and the exodus.

[achilles12604]

If God gives us free will, which I have believed it so, then why during the plague on Egypt did God harden the Pharaoh's heart? Technically you cannot call that free will, am I correct?

Secondly which parts of the Bible are WE suppose to take literally and not-literally? Telling me your views on it might help a bit.

Thanks for the inputs.

Wow is that all? What a couple of easy questions to answer . . . .

um. . . . . .

errr . . . . .





Questions like these are what makes religion so interesting huh? Ok I'll do what I can in my own meek manner.

First Question - lets pull up the scriptures
For this I will be using the NIV version and Young's literal translation so as to compare the two.

Ex 7
3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you.

3`And I harden the heart of Pharaoh, and have multiplied My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt,

13 Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

13and the heart of Pharaoh is strong, and he hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken.

14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go.

14And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `The heart of Pharaoh hath been hard, he hath refused to send the people away;

22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said. 23 Instead, he turned and went into his palace, and did not take even this to heart.

22And the scribes of Egypt do so with their flashings, and the heart of Pharaoh is strong, and he hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken, 23and Pharaoh turneth and goeth in unto his house, and hath not set his heart even to this;

Ex 8
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

15And Pharaoh seeth that there hath been a respite, and he hath hardened his heart, and hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken.

19 The magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said.

19and the scribes say unto Pharaoh, `It [is] the finger of God;' and the heart of Pharaoh is strong, and he hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken.

32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.

32and Pharaoh hardeneth his heart also at this time, and hath not sent the people away.

Ex 9
7 Pharaoh sent men to investigate and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.

7and Pharaoh sendeth, and lo, not even one of the cattle of Israel hath died, and the heart of Pharaoh is hard, and he hath not sent the people away.

12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

12And Jehovah strengtheneth the heart of Pharaoh, and he hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken unto Moses.

34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.

34and Pharaoh seeth that the rain hath ceased, and the hail and the voices, and he continueth to sin, and hardeneth his heart, he and his servants;

Ex 10
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them

1And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Go in unto Pharaoh, for I have declared hard his heart, and the heart of his servants, so that I set these My signs in their midst,

7 Pharaoh's officials said to him, "How long will this man be a snare to us? Let the people go, so that they may worship the LORD their God. Do you not yet realize that Egypt is ruined?"

7And the servants of Pharaoh say unto him, `Until when doth this [one] become a snare to us? send the men away, and they serve Jehovah their God; knowest thou not yet that Egypt hath perished?'

20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

20and Jehovah strengtheneth the heart of Pharaoh, and he hath not sent the sons of Israel away.

27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. 28 Pharaoh said to Moses, "Get out of my sight! Make sure you do not appear before me again! The day you see my face you will die."

27And Jehovah strengtheneth the heart of Pharaoh, and he hath not been willing to send them away; 28and Pharaoh saith to him, `Go from me, take heed to thyself, add not to see my face, for in the day thou seest my face thou diest;'

Ex 11
9 The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

9And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Pharaoh doth not hearken unto you, so as to multiply My wonders in the land of Egypt;' 10and Moses and Aaron have done all these wonders before Pharaoh, and Jehovah strengtheneth Pharaoh's heart, and he hath not sent the sons of Israel out of his land.

OK there are all the quotes I can find on the subject.

Now the first thing that REALLY jumped out at me was in Exodus 10 . . . .

Ex 10
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them

1And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Go in unto Pharaoh, for I have declared hard his heart, and the heart of his servants, so that I set these My signs in their midst,

7 Pharaoh's officials said to him, "How long will this man be a snare to us? Let the people go, so that they may worship the LORD their God. Do you not yet realize that Egypt is ruined?"

7And the servants of Pharaoh say unto him, `Until when doth this [one] become a snare to us? send the men away, and they serve Jehovah their God; knowest thou not yet that Egypt hath perished?'

Notice here that Even though God hardened the hearts of the officials, they still tried to get Pharaoh to let Moses go. This is extremely important because it is a clear illustration of the differences between the heart, and free will.

In my opinion, the heart is not the same as free will. Paul writes that our flesh has wicked desires but the holy spirit within us is stronger than those desires. I think this is ultimately the same thing that is happening here. God is either allowing or causing Pharaoh to feel his own pride and selfishness and then Pharaoh uses his will to decide to reject God's desires. Notice that half the time Pharaoh hardens his own heart. He indulges his natural heartfelt desire to maintain selfish control of the Israelites.

At no time does God interject his will onto Pharaoh. He might have caused Pharaoh to experience his own selfish desires but I don't know if I even hold this view. I think it is acceptable however based on the free will stance. My own personal view is that God allowed Pharaoh to feel as evil and selfish and powerful as he wanted which ultimately resulted in his will's decision.

Now if these passages meant that God replaced Pharaoh's free will with his own, then the officials should never have been able to urge pharaoh to let the Israelites go after God hardened their hearts as well. This is important because it clearly shows that despite having hardened hearts, they still possessed the ability to decide for themselves what to do.

Now. On to question two.

What parts of the bible to take literally? Well here is how I judge this. I first examine the world. I take into account science. Second I take into account my understanding of the supernatural. I then take into account the history of the passage in question. Then I decide based on what I know.

Examples:

Matthew's rendition of Jesus death.

Matthew writes that Jesus died, there was a terrific earthquake and many holy people were brought to life.

Literal or otherwise?

First, the world view is of course that dead people don't rise. However Jesus did rise so it is possible. Then I look at other writings of the time. Not one other source mentions dead people coming to life. Science is of course against such an event. However based on the supernatural it would be possible. Lastly I take into consideration the history of the passage.

There is a style of writing known as Apocalyptical writings which was used for hundreds of years by the Jews in particular. This style of writings can be found in other works they posses, both religious and otherwise (google it, I also provided links SOMEWHERE on this forum but I certainly can't remember where). This style of writings was used when a tremendous event took place which people should take note of. (Like Jesus atoning death). This style of writing usually included tremendous and otherwise unheard of events like many holy people rising or the sky falling or the heavens being torn apart.

So, I made my choice that this particular section is not meant to be taken literally because:
1) there is absolutely no multiple attestation even among the other Gospels
2) This event goes against the norm
3) This event had no real theological value
4) This event can be accounted for with an understanding of the writings style of the day.

Now, on the other hand Jesus healings are another matter.

1) We have multiple attestation of these events not only in the Gospel accounts, but also in secular accounts.

2) While it goes against the natural, it is possible with the supernatural and it definitely had supernatural value as it attested to Jesus divine nature

3) This event explains and fits in with the rest of the historical account of Jesus (ie a reason why the leaders wanted him dead)

So despite the fact that this event would normally go against nature, there is enough evidence for the other side to where I can accept this as factual.


There are times where I am in the middle.

Hell for example. Hell is unable to be measured by science. Its history is simply unknown according to history. Unless someone is there, there is no way to collect information about Hell.

Now do I believe in Hell . . . yes. Can I prove it or even make a solid argument for its existence? Not really. Am I sure about the details of Hell and those in it? No.

So you can see that at least for me, I measure things with certain tools, in a certain order to determine what is literal and what is not.

Ok I hope I helped some. If not then I still learned a bit about Moses and the exodus.

[Goose]

If God gives us free will, which I have believed it so, then why during the plague on Egypt did God harden the Pharaoh's heart? Technically you cannot call that free will, am I correct?

Achilles did an excellent job in his post. I'd probably argue along the same lines. But, even if you want to take the line that God actually infringed upon Pharaoh's free will, and made the decision for Pharaoh, and thus lead to the "killing of innocent babies," as many skeptics will insist, the real question then becomes was this immoral or unjust in this instance? It's important for a skeptic to view God as having infringed upon Pharaoh's free will. It gives a perceived moral superiority over God and provides an excuse for the skeptic that God is sadistic and free will is fallacy and therefore not worthy of following. So let's make it easy for the skeptic and for the sake of argument let's assume God manipulated Pharaoh's free will (which I, like achilles, don't believe He did). So the question then is was it unjust or immoral? I don't think so, here's why.

Most skeptics conveniently forget to mention the history leading to the event of the death of the Egyptian first born. Here's some background scripture.

Exodus 1:12-14 (NIV)

12 But the more they[Israelites] were oppressed, the more they multiplied and spread; so the Egyptians came to dread the Israelites 13 and worked them ruthlessly. 14 They made their lives bitter with hard labor in brick and mortar and with all kinds of work in the fields; in all their hard labor the Egyptians used them ruthlessly.

The Pharaoh in power around the time of Moses' birth ordered the following decree. Note: the text makes no mention of God hardening the heart of Pharaoh prior to this action toward the Israelites. The Pharaoh made this decision of his own free will:

Exodus 1:22

22 Then Pharaoh gave this order to all his people: "Every boy that is born you must throw into the Nile, but let every girl live."

Also, this wasn't a death order from Pharaoh for only the first born males, but for EVERY male born. It was population control, plain and simple. How many "innocent" Israelite children were killed by Egyptian authority? There is no time frame given, so we could assume that this killing went on for many years. So we can see that this Pharaoh clearly initiated atrocities toward the Israelites.

That king(Pharaoh) died and we see God becoming restless regarding the Israelites situation in Exodus 2:23-25

23 During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God. 24 God heard their groaning and he remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac and with Jacob. 25 So God looked on the Israelites and was concerned about them.

A few more scriptures indicating Israel's oppression and why God took action.

Exodus 3:7

7 The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering.

Exodus 3:9-10

9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.

God exercises His omniscience in the next scripture and indicates that Pharaoh would not let God's people go unless a mighty hand were to make him. In other words, God indicates that in a free will situation where Pharaoh had the ability to freely choose, Pharaoh would not have simply let the Israelites go. So, if God did infringe on Pharaoh's free will, it wasn't immoral because Pharaoh wasn't going to choose to let the Israelites go anyway,unless God intervened.
Exodus 3:19

19 But I[God] know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him.

Next we see God's telling Moses that He considers the Israelits His first born child. Moses is instructed to convey the following message to Pharaoh.

Exodus 4:22-23

22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

In the context of the Law that God was going to reveal to Moses in later chapters regarding an "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" (Exodus 21:24). We see that God has enacted an equal if not lesser judgment against Egypt.

Exodus 21:14

14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.

A King of Egypt had killed and persecuted the first born of God, i.e. the male Israelites babies (and other deaths that likely occurred as the result of Egyptian cruelty). So God killed the first born of Egypt. In the context of the Law at the time, this was perfectly justified. In fact, it could be argued that it was expected of God to act in such a way to demonstrate that He was willing and powerful enough to uphold the Law He had (or would give) given at that time.

Secondly which parts of the Bible are WE suppose to take literally and not-literally? Telling me your views on it might help a bit.

Thanks for the inputs.

Some of the Bible is pretty obvious as to what should or should not be taken literally. There are different genres and purposes for different books in the Bible. Written at different times, under different circumstances, in different geographic locations, by different people. These concerns must be taken into account. If not, then according to Psalms I'm worshipping Big Bird.

Psalms 91:4

4 He[God] will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

Hope that helps.

[Snoozey`]

Thank you for the response, I will indulge myself in it very soon but have some other question for you guys..

We... or I should say people claim that God is omniscient, omnipotent, omni- this and that. But I don't believe he's, "omni," with everything. He can't certainly make a triangle into a circle nor can he really move a mountain. I don't believe he can do what we would call in human standards, "logically." Do you guys think thats an Non-Christian like mentality?

Also why are the "Gospels," of Judas and Thomas not acknowledged by the Church? Are there any good books to read to gain knowledge on those gospels?

Thanks for all the help guys.

[achilles12604]

Thank you for the response, I will indulge myself in it very soon but have some other question for you guys..

We... or I should say people claim that God is omniscient, omnipotent, omni- this and that. But I don't believe he's, "omni," with everything. He can't certainly make a triangle into a circle nor can he really move a mountain. I don't believe he can do what we would call in human standards, "logically." Do you guys think thats an Non-Christian like mentality?

Also why are the "Gospels," of Judas and Thomas not acknowledged by the Church? Are there any good books to read to gain knowledge on those gospels?

Thanks for all the help guys.

There is actually a thread about this. Let me find it . . .

Ok I can't find it right now. I will look again later.

The bottom line is that questions like this and others

"Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" "Can god create a distance so far he can't see something on the other side?"

is that the problem isn't with God. It is with the question. The question is designed with inherrently illogical questions. Their basic premise A and their question B are not logically compatable, so of course the answer is impossible.

Let me use an analogy. In mathematics there are set boundries given sometimes. These are comparable to "laws" of the universe.

x>7 X<12

Now given these parameters any number inside of these values will be applicable to the equation. However if you try and insert X=3, the equation will no longer be valid. This is in essence what they are doing with these questions. Given how we understand Weight and Distance or whatever (triangles you provided), thier question falls outside the realm of applicable so it is an invalid question to begin with.

However this doesn't stop them from trying to ask them to throw us all off.

PS - I would disagree about God moving a mountain. I think God can move mountains if he so desired. However, this phrase is often cited incorrectly as the "mountain" being referenced is probably not a physical one.

[otseng]

We... or I should say people claim that God is omniscient, omnipotent, omni- this and that. But I don't believe he's, "omni," with everything. He can't certainly make a triangle into a circle nor can he really move a mountain. I don't believe he can do what we would call in human standards, "logically." Do you guys think thats an Non-Christian like mentality?

Here's one thread discussing this: Can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it?

[achilles12604]

We... or I should say people claim that God is omniscient, omnipotent, omni- this and that. But I don't believe he's, "omni," with everything. He can't certainly make a triangle into a circle nor can he really move a mountain. I don't believe he can do what we would call in human standards, "logically." Do you guys think thats an Non-Christian like mentality?

Here's one thread discussing this: Can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it?

Thank you. This was the one I was looking for.

[Snoozey`]

Hello, it's been a while . Been busy with university life :/.

Anywho I shall quote myself

Also why are the "Gospels," of Judas and Thomas not acknowledged by the Church? Are there any good books to read to gain knowledge on those gospels?

Are there any good reads for those topic? Thanks, I did some searching, found some books but not sure which one would be good.

[john_anthony_gonzalez]

If God gives us free will, which I have believed it so, then why during the plague on Egypt did God harden the Pharaoh's heart? Technically you cannot call that free will, am I correct?

Secondly which parts of the Bible are WE suppose to take literally and not-literally? Telling me your views on it might help a bit.

Thanks for the inputs.

The verse isnt saying the God is hardening his heart but more so that because of each plauge that God does Pharaohs heart will harden. i will harden his heart Some interpret these words as meaning that God would confirm what Pharaoh had stubbornly determined to do in the first five plagues, the hardening is attributed to Pharaoh.(see 7:13,22:, 8:15,19, 32, 9:7) Then for the sixth plague. God hardened a heart that Pharaoh had already hardened (9:12) Others insist that God had determined Pharaohs negative response to moses long before Pharaoh could harden his heart. T