Does religion show its ignorance in science?

[Confused]

In 2004, the Gallup organization released a survey to Americans. There were three questions and the participants where asked to answer which one closely resembles their views on the origin and development of life:

1) we developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process

2) We developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but without any guidance by a God.

3) God created us as we are within the last 10,000 years or so.

Results:

1) 38%

2) 13%

3) 45%.

The company claims that the percentages haven't really changed much over the past two years.

So my debate question is obvious: How can we, as such an advanced society, with all the technology and knowledge we have now, still continue to refuse to see the truth in science? We accept DNA evidence in courts every day to convict criminal and none of us blink an eye, but DNA from the Human Genome Project the clearly shows the evolution, we ignore and pretend it doesn't exist.

Is religion dooming itself by holding on to antiquated beliefs?

[Confused]

Is religion dooming itself by holding on to antiquated beliefs?

Perhaps the survey simply reveals that evolutionists have failed to convince the public of the veracity of their claims.

I think more likely it is the fact that many theists refuse to even listen to the proponderance of evidence and completely misconstrue the theory of evolution. Instead, as quoted by Augustine in an earlier post, Theists need to keep current and avoid the use of the God of Gaps if they are to remain strong. Otherwise they end up just as Achilles said, looking lazy and ingnorant. Einstein said Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. In other words, let God explain the supernatural, while science explains the natural. This is the way the world should be. Spirtuality lies outside of science.

Richard Collins uses a sonnet by Sheldon Vanauken to describe his dilemma between science and the moral law:
Between the probable and proved there yawns
A gap. Afraid to jump, we stand absurd,
Then see behind us sink the ground and, worse,
Our very standing point crumbling. Desparate dawns
Our only hope, to leap into the Word
That opens up the shuttered universe

He refers to the fact that science doesn't have to conflict with religion but to truly understand religion, one must understand science and to truly understand science, one must understand religion. Collins chose to leap toward faith. Good for him, but he also chose not to ignore science. Instead, he found a way to make them work together.

Unfortunately, he is a rare diamond amongst a pile of rocks. Just yesterday, a nurse I work with saw a book I was reading (Why Darwin Matters; A case against Intelligent Design) and with a look of disgust, she said evolution is the biggest crock I have ever hear of. It is all lies and fabrications. I was absolutely astounded (granted, I never thought her the brightest bulb anyways, but still). As with most, she said she had no problem with convicting a rapist on DNA evidence, but that man didn't come from monkeys. When I told her that had nothing to do with evolution, she said she has researched it for a long time and she knows for a fact that it is a load of crap. I had to walk away.

[Cathar1950]

You are such a pessimist Confused. I bet your glass is half empty.

1) 62% believe "we developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process".


2) A whopping 87% believe "We developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but without any guidance by a God".


3) 55% think "we developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process"

We do need more and better reading math and science education everywhere always. It should also be fun and exciting.

I agree. Math and science education shoud be widely studied. . . .

62 + 87 + 55 = 204 %

I think it requres a vain diagram.

[Confused]

You are such a pessimist Confused. I bet your glass is half empty.

1) 62% believe "we developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process".


2) A whopping 87% believe "We developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but without any guidance by a God".


3) 55% think "we developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process"

We do need more and better reading math and science education everywhere always. It should also be fun and exciting.
They should be watching History and National Geographic programs reading all kind of things including Creation Science in social science and history classes.
Schools are little lockups where they train people to be used by corporate American. Many would like to get rid of these dens of Satan and liberalism while releasing them to a bunch of dumb parents sending them off to schools for religious indoctrination, except the rich and gifted, they will be sent to good private schools. Eventually the numbers would be 90% believing anything they are told by he sanctioned educated. I am not paranoid.

Ouch I can't say that you are wrong, usually my glass is half empty, but the good thing is that refills are free

What we really need is more people who are willing to accept facts over myths. In reality, if theists did, I think they may gain even more credibility and followers. Instead the majority I know hide behind "the bible says this, not that". So that must be untrue. I finally discovered the largest part of my confusion could be contributed to the majority of allegorical accounts in the bible being taken literally. People need to open their eyes and see that if Christianity is true and they continue to deny the reality of the world their God created, then satan wins. They will die ignorant fools never experiencing life as He meant for them to.

[achilles12604]

You are such a pessimist Confused. I bet your glass is half empty.

1) 62% believe "we developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process".


2) A whopping 87% believe "We developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but without any guidance by a God".


3) 55% think "we developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process"

We do need more and better reading math and science education everywhere always. It should also be fun and exciting.
They should be watching History and National Geographic programs reading all kind of things including Creation Science in social science and history classes.
Schools are little lockups where they train people to be used by corporate American. Many would like to get rid of these dens of Satan and liberalism while releasing them to a bunch of dumb parents sending them off to schools for religious indoctrination, except the rich and gifted, they will be sent to good private schools. Eventually the numbers would be 90% believing anything they are told by he sanctioned educated. I am not paranoid.

Ouch I can't say that you are wrong, usually my glass is half empty, but the good thing is that refills are free

What we really need is more people who are willing to accept facts over myths. In reality, if theists did, I think they may gain even more credibility and followers. Instead the majority I know hide behind "the bible says this, not that". So that must be untrue. I finally discovered the largest part of my confusion could be contributed to the majority of allegorical accounts in the bible being taken literally. People need to open their eyes and see that if Christianity is true and they continue to deny the reality of the world their God created, then satan wins. They will die ignorant fools never experiencing life as He meant for them to.

Another outstanding analysis. You should become a preacher.

Your words here were paraphrased by Jesus . . .

"I come to bring life, and bring it more abundantly."

Stubbornness, know-it-all ness (is that a word?), and the like were exactly what Jesus was fighting against in the religious leaders of the time. In fact the church today resembles the Pharisees and Sadducees a lot more than most theists would like to admit.

[Confused]

You are such a pessimist Confused. I bet your glass is half empty.

1) 62% believe "we developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process".


2) A whopping 87% believe "We developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but without any guidance by a God".


3) 55% think "we developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process"

We do need more and better reading math and science education everywhere always. It should also be fun and exciting.
They should be watching History and National Geographic programs reading all kind of things including Creation Science in social science and history classes.
Schools are little lockups where they train people to be used by corporate American. Many would like to get rid of these dens of Satan and liberalism while releasing them to a bunch of dumb parents sending them off to schools for religious indoctrination, except the rich and gifted, they will be sent to good private schools. Eventually the numbers would be 90% believing anything they are told by he sanctioned educated. I am not paranoid.

Ouch I can't say that you are wrong, usually my glass is half empty, but the good thing is that refills are free

What we really need is more people who are willing to accept facts over myths. In reality, if theists did, I think they may gain even more credibility and followers. Instead the majority I know hide behind "the bible says this, not that". So that must be untrue. I finally discovered the largest part of my confusion could be contributed to the majority of allegorical accounts in the bible being taken literally. People need to open their eyes and see that if Christianity is true and they continue to deny the reality of the world their God created, then satan wins. They will die ignorant fools never experiencing life as He meant for them to.

Another outstanding analysis. You should become a preacher.

Your words here were paraphrased by Jesus . . .

"I come to bring life, and bring it more abundantly."

Stubbornness, know-it-all ness (is that a word?), and the like were exactly what Jesus was fighting against in the religious leaders of the time. In fact the church today resembles the Pharisees and Sadducees a lot more than most theists would like to admit.

LOL. Too bad I haven't gotten the faith thing figured out yet. Collins did so, and did it so eloquently, it is hard not to envy him. Collins believes God did bring life, but science brought it more abundantly. In my mind, he is the equivalent of Einstein. His insight and knowledge is so clear. He doesn't condemn any faith or lack thereof. He allows for science to explain nature. His arguement stems in Biologos. I haven't quite gotten it all figured out yet, but the website I listed in the biologs thread is helping enormously.

[achilles12604]

You are such a pessimist Confused. I bet your glass is half empty.

1) 62% believe "we developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process".


2) A whopping 87% believe "We developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but without any guidance by a God".


3) 55% think "we developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided the process"

We do need more and better reading math and science education everywhere always. It should also be fun and exciting.
They should be watching History and National Geographic programs reading all kind of things including Creation Science in social science and history classes.
Schools are little lockups where they train people to be used by corporate American. Many would like to get rid of these dens of Satan and liberalism while releasing them to a bunch of dumb parents sending them off to schools for religious indoctrination, except the rich and gifted, they will be sent to good private schools. Eventually the numbers would be 90% believing anything they are told by he sanctioned educated. I am not paranoid.

Ouch I can't say that you are wrong, usually my glass is half empty, but the good thing is that refills are free

What we really need is more people who are willing to accept facts over myths. In reality, if theists did, I think they may gain even more credibility and followers. Instead the majority I know hide behind "the bible says this, not that". So that must be untrue. I finally discovered the largest part of my confusion could be contributed to the majority of allegorical accounts in the bible being taken literally. People need to open their eyes and see that if Christianity is true and they continue to deny the reality of the world their God created, then satan wins. They will die ignorant fools never experiencing life as He meant for them to.

Another outstanding analysis. You should become a preacher.

Your words here were paraphrased by Jesus . . .

"I come to bring life, and bring it more abundantly."

Stubbornness, know-it-all ness (is that a word?), and the like were exactly what Jesus was fighting against in the religious leaders of the time. In fact the church today resembles the Pharisees and Sadducees a lot more than most theists would like to admit.

LOL. Too bad I haven't gotten the faith thing figured out yet. Collins did so, and did it so eloquently, it is hard not to envy him. Collins believes God did bring life, but science brought it more abundantly. In my mind, he is the equivalent of Einstein. His insight and knowledge is so clear. He doesn't condemn any faith or lack thereof. He allows for science to explain nature. His arguement stems in Biologos. I haven't quite gotten it all figured out yet, but the website I listed in the biologs thread is helping enormously.

I very much enjoy Collins. The Language of God is an excellent book written by a master in his field. Did you know he debated with Atheist Richard Dawkins about this subject? Short but very interesting debate.

Anyways, you might also enjoy Falk: Coming to Peace with Science. Again written by a scientist and from a scientific viewpoint, Falk presents an avid anti-creation, Pro science, Christian viewpoint. Just another book to add to your rediculously large library.

[Confused]

I believe a similar survey was done in the UK with not dissimilar results. Though perhaps creationism not scoring quite as high.

I think several reasons for this are at play.

1) Superficially at least Creationism is easier to understand than evolution. And people have a tendency to gravitate towards answers they find easier to understand.

2) Though compulsory to 16 Science in UK schools is in catastrophic decline.

3) From my personal experience, teaching staff in other disciplines in the UK are themselves woefully ignorant of science. For example, on one parents evening at my son's school his English teacher admitted she had heard of Newton, but was not sure what he did. Arrgghhh!!!

4) Though now compulsory, there are several generations of people in the UK who could drop science lesson by the age of 13. To my eternal regret I was one of them. I can confirm I was never taught evolution in school because it was a subject limited to the biology syllabus.

I think you may be partially correct. The education system does minimal to teach children in younger grades about science so they lack an interest in it by the time they reach a grade at which evolution would be introduced. My 8 year old daughter knows more about the Constitution and unfair taxation than she knows about the world around her. That I find to be sad. By the time children reach high school, where they can get their first exposure to evolution, they are no longer interested in science because it goes from almost no eposure to science to overwhelming exposure and children lose interest quick.

But I also think evolutionary biologists are partially to blame as well. In "Why Darwin Matters" the author points out that initally biologists had no interest in debating evolutionists. They felt their scientific research was in no way related to the theological explanations religions were giving. Because of this, ID got a strong foothold in society. Only now are evolutionary biologists realizing that the common public is being misled by their silence. Left unchallenged, evolution became a joke to many while ID started to make sense in a way creationism never did. The mistake has cost science much in the form of loss of integrity. The average persons lack of interest in science assured the religious community that few would read the scientific journals to keep current on the facts and reality of evolution. Now, much ground has to be made up for and evolutionary biologists are having to start with the most basics of evolution in their books before they can even begin to explain why evolution requires nothing supernatural.

However, that knowledge is spreading and it is spreading at an ever growing rate. ID is being disproven day after day with each new discovery and connection science makes. Religion needs to realize that science is fighting back with facts, not fiction and if it stands a chance of retaining any credibility, it needs to accept the reality of the natural world and rather than continuing to try to disprove something it can't even compete with, it should be searching for equilibrium. All things in life require balance. If religion doesn't accept reality, it will fade away like most ancient myths. I beleive one can balance facts and faith to a degree. But as religion exists in todays world, that balance has no chance of being achieved.

High schools in Florida are going to start having students declare a major as a freshman and from the current research, biological and cosmological sciences are gaining in popularity for majors. Why, because biologists have finally come out of their shell to put to rest the fables of ID. This has generated even greater interest in evolution. My 8 year old may not see the effects yet, but my 17 year old has and over the past 2 years has become more and more interested in genetics and chemistry. My 18 year old has become more and more interested in biology and physics. Both have become much more familiar with evolution and no longer beleive what some of their religious freinds are preaching.

Religion is now being subjected to natural selection of its own form. It must adapt to survive in its new environment or it will become extinct.

[Furrowed Brow]

I believe a similar survey was done in the UK with not dissimilar results. Though perhaps creationism not scoring quite as high.

I think several reasons for this are at play.

1) Superficially at least Creationism is easier to understand than evolution. And people have a tendency to gravitate towards answers they find easier to understand.

2) Though compulsory to 16 Science in UK schools is in catastrophic decline.

3) From my personal experience, teaching staff in other disciplines in the UK are themselves woefully ignorant of science. For example, on one parents evening at my son's school his English teacher admitted she had heard of Newton, but was not sure what he did. Arrgghhh!!!

4) Though now compulsory, there are several generations of people in the UK who could drop science lesson by the age of 13. To my eternal regret I was one of them. I can confirm I was never taught evolution in school because it was a subject limited to the biology syllabus.

I think you may be partially correct. The education system does minimal to teach children in younger grades about science so they lack an interest in it by the time they reach a grade at which evolution would be introduced. My 8 year old daughter knows more about the Constitution and unfair taxation than she knows about the world around her. That I find to be sad. By the time children reach high school, where they can get their first exposure to evolution, they are no longer interested in science because it goes from almost no eposure to science to overwhelming exposure and children lose interest quick.

But I also think evolutionary biologists are partially to blame as well. In "Why Darwin Matters" the author points out that initally biologists had no interest in debating evolutionists. They felt their scientific research was in no way related to the theological explanations religions were giving. Because of this, ID got a strong foothold in society. Only now are evolutionary biologists realizing that the common public is being misled by their silence. Left unchallenged, evolution became a joke to many while ID started to make sense in a way creationism never did. The mistake has cost science much in the form of loss of integrity. The average persons lack of interest in science assured the religious community that few would read the scientific journals to keep current on the facts and reality of evolution. Now, much ground has to be made up for and evolutionary biologists are having to start with the most basics of evolution in their books before they can even begin to explain why evolution requires nothing supernatural.

However, that knowledge is spreading and it is spreading at an ever growing rate. ID is being disproven day after day with each new discovery and connection science makes. Religion needs to realize that science is fighting back with facts, not fiction and if it stands a chance of retaining any credibility, it needs to accept the reality of the natural world and rather than continuing to try to disprove something it can't even compete with, it should be searching for equilibrium. All things in life require balance. If religion doesn't accept reality, it will fade away like most ancient myths. I beleive one can balance facts and faith to a degree. But as religion exists in todays world, that balance has no chance of being achieved.

High schools in Florida are going to start having students declare a major as a freshman and from the current research, biological and cosmological sciences are gaining in popularity for majors. Why, because biologists have finally come out of their shell to put to rest the fables of ID. This has generated even greater interest in evolution. My 8 year old may not see the effects yet, but my 17 year old has and over the past 2 years has become more and more interested in genetics and chemistry. My 18 year old has become more and more interested in biology and physics. Both have become much more familiar with evolution and no longer beleive what some of their religious freinds are preaching.

Religion is now being subjected to natural selection of its own form. It must adapt to survive in its new environment or it will become extinct.

Yep.

I’m also of the belief that the way we educate our kids needs to be completely reassessed. If I was running things there would be a large part of the curriculum dedicated to explicitly teaching RIGOUR. What it means to be Rigorous. This would include comparisons between the various methodologies of science, philosophy, history and literature. I’d also put Aristotle, Francis Bacon, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Darwin, Einstein etc on the curriculum. Teach them outside of the science class., and as part of a History of ideas. Teach what they discovered, and put that into an historical context.

[QED]

But I also think evolutionary biologists are partially to blame as well. In "Why Darwin Matters" the author points out that initally biologists had no interest in debating evolutionists. They felt their scientific research was in no way related to the theological explanations religions were giving. Because of this, ID got a strong foothold in society. Only now are evolutionary biologists realizing that the common public is being misled by their silence. Left unchallenged, evolution became a joke to many while ID started to make sense in a way creationism never did.

I agree. The tag line "Teach the controversy" is at the heart of this problem. It's always easier to run a negative campaign, as any politician or person wrongly accused of some crime knows. Having spent so much time reading the negatives on these forums I can now hear a little voice answering on behalf of the controversy...

The mistake has cost science much in the form of loss of integrity.

The mistake is in science pursuing a fruitless materialistic explanation that will never succeed if it fails to take into account the obvious element of supernatural design that we can all see in nature.

The average persons lack of interest in science assured the religious community that few would read the scientific journals to keep current on the facts and reality of evolution.

What you call "facts" are so obviously ridiculous that it's hardly surprising that nobody is interested in them!

Now, much ground has to be made up for and evolutionary biologists are having to start with the most basics of evolution in their books before they can even begin to explain why evolution requires nothing supernatural.

Excellent. Now that we're starting from basics let's see the evidence showing how life got started. The world is waiting to hear how this incredible stroke of luck could come about. After all, if something as basic as this can have no natural explanation then all the subsequent natural explanations are utterly moot.

However, that knowledge is spreading and it is spreading at an ever growing rate. ID is being disproven day after day with each new discovery and connection science makes.

These connections only link a minute fraction of the gigantic web of life which we can all see for ourselves as being carefully tailored to mesh with itself in perfect harmony. A place has clearly been made for everything and everything is in it's rightful place. No scientific proof is needed to show something as obvious as this.

Religion needs to realize that science is fighting back with facts, not fiction and if it stands a chance of retaining any credibility, it needs to accept the reality of the natural world and rather than continuing to try to disprove something it can't even compete with, it should be searching for equilibrium. All things in life require balance. If religion doesn't accept reality, it will fade away like most ancient myths. I beleive one can balance facts and faith to a degree. But as religion exists in todays world, that balance has no chance of being achieved.

No religion has anything to fear as the real facts are plain for all to see. Scientific facts are built on religious assumptions that are plainly false. Nothing ever comes from nothing, everything has a cause and only willful minds can create order from chaos and it's always done for some purpose.

High schools in Florida are going to start having students declare a major as a freshman and from the current research, biological and cosmological sciences are gaining in popularity for majors. Why, because biologists have finally come out of their shell to put to rest the fables of ID. This has generated even greater interest in evolution. My 8 year old may not see the effects yet, but my 17 year old has and over the past 2 years has become more and more interested in genetics and chemistry. My 18 year old has become more and more interested in biology and physics. Both have become much more familiar with evolution and no longer beleive what some of their religious freinds are preaching.

Religion is now being subjected to natural selection of its own form. It must adapt to survive in its new environment or it will become extinct.

Sooner or later all these children will eventually come to realise the emptiness of the world they've created and, thanks to the sense of those who see the unmistakable imprint of a provident designer in the world, religion will always be around to acquaint them with their maker before they're forced to meet face to face.

:yapyap:

[Furrowed Brow]

Is religion dooming itself by holding on to antiquated beliefs?

Perhaps the survey simply reveals that evolutionists have failed to convince the public of the veracity of their claims.

Is that down to a failure of veracity or a failture to appreciate the veracity?