Is it ok to kill?

[veinmetal]

I made this movie yesterday:

It's about Satan that has to fight The Devil to save the world

[methylatedghosts]

Ok, this thread seems to jump all over the place. There are some "crazy" statements in here, but they seem to make sense.

Talking about the paedophilia, I see a problem. You said something like "let them rape kids on the net". The problem is that ok, for a while they'd be satisfied and all will be ok. But realise, that soon enough this won't be enough. Isn't this how most paedophiles start? By searching the pics on the net, then movies, then soon enough all that isn't enough. They know that it is "wrong" don't they, but continue anyway, because it feels good?

Ok, so you give them a blow-up doll or robot or whatever, but that wouldn't be the same. Isn't half of it the rush of possibly getting caught, getting away with it? And the adrenaline of the kidnap, if it involves that, and the child reacting by screaming/crying etc etc etc.

I know, it is twisted, but isn't that what is behind their thoughts, even though they may not realise?

Nothing is as good as the real thing, and this, for some people, would include paedophilia. The same for rape, killing, stealing, through to going snowboarding vs. playing a snowboarding game......

People want to experience for real, what they have seen or heard and appeals to them. After a while, if you put all these rapists, killers, theives in a virtual reality world, it won't be enough, and they will no longer be happy with it. Where to then.......?

[veinmetal]

You go to work every day, come home to your wife and kids, have dinner, do homework, etc.... This is your reality. People with schizphrenia, antisocial personality disorders, psychotics don't see reality in these terms. They are almost literally on a different dimension in their mind. PET scans have shown that most schizophrenics use more of their brain than the average sane man. We spend billions of dollars every year on treating what can't be cured. My son is autistic. He can't be cured. He can be taught how to live in our society under his terms (ie minimal stimulation, routines, etc..). Neat and orderly is his heaven along with calculus and 3-D jigsaw puzzles (he is 7). Schizophrenics in the early phases know something is wrong and society reinforces it instead of expanding on it. Now, I work in medicine, so don't get me wrong. I am aware of pathophysiology. But if a person is constantly being told everything they see and hear is wrong, soon they thing that even when they see something right, it is wrong. See where I am going with this? Instead they become labeled, institutionalized and medicated until they are no longer a threat to society and then returned to the world that they have been taught to believe was wrong. Pedophiles werent considered bad until the past century or so. Before that it was normal for a 18-40 year old man to marry a 10-12 year old girl (depending on first menses), but they were betrothed much younger than that. Now we say disgusting, shame on them. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with it, but it is a historical fact.

Everything you mention here is valid to a degree. The problem comes in with the slippery slope fallacy which could very well be a valid assertion rather than a fallacy. If we allow internet child porn: first off some children have to be used to make the porn, then there is no guarantee that this will prevent the person from doing this in reality at some point.

Better solution: virtual reality. Then it would be truly victimless.

Your video was actually (I can't believe I am saying this) good. You make a lot of extraordinary claims that would be impossible to prove. But so is God.

I like the idea of enlightenment being heaven. Peace and knowledge.

Your format to introduce this was very unique and I have to say that intially I though it was a joke. But oddly, its perceptive at the least.

Thank you a lot for your input. For a while there I almost forgot what was my intention and the reason I posted this. Most of the time I feel like I don't really care about these poor people and what I am looking for is sensationalism. Therefore I get the impression that I am playing hypocrite. But your reply reminds me that in fact I do care. Not only because my mother became a schizophrenic 3 years ago but mostly because of my extremely selfish thinking. I am so selfish that I am obsessed with the idea that if I were born a pedophile or any kind of mental ill it would really suck for me in this world. I am sorry for your son. I bet it must have been hard for him and his family.

Better solution: virtual reality. Then it would be truly victimless.

Yes, definitely virtual reality and nothing more.

[veinmetal]

Ok, this thread seems to jump all over the place. There are some "crazy" statements in here, but they seem to make sense.

Talking about the paedophilia, I see a problem. You said something like "let them rape kids on the net". The problem is that ok, for a while they'd be satisfied and all will be ok. But realise, that soon enough this won't be enough. Isn't this how most paedophiles start? By searching the pics on the net, then movies, then soon enough all that isn't enough. They know that it is "wrong" don't they, but continue anyway, because it feels good?

Ok, so you give them a blow-up doll or robot or whatever, but that wouldn't be the same. Isn't half of it the rush of possibly getting caught, getting away with it? And the adrenaline of the kidnap, if it involves that, and the child reacting by screaming/crying etc etc etc.

I know, it is twisted, but isn't that what is behind their thoughts, even though they may not realise?

Nothing is as good as the real thing, and this, for some people, would include paedophilia. The same for rape, killing, stealing, through to going snowboarding vs. playing a snowboarding game......

People want to experience for real, what they have seen or heard and appeals to them. After a while, if you put all these rapists, killers, theives in a virtual reality world, it won't be enough, and they will no longer be happy with it. Where to then.......?

This reply is a powerful reality check. Nothing beats the "real thing". As an example if someone comes to me and tells me that making love to a woman is a crime and the solution is for me to masturbate on women on the internet I will probably end up making love to a women ,secretly, in real life IRL. No doubt.

What I am trying to do is to reconsider the morality laws that we have in all the today's societies. We must understand that these individuals aren't tolerated so we can't expect anything else from them than deceit. They are not welcome because they are considered accidents of nature. Some of them will end up suiciding because of the depletion of self-love. Others will become rebels and go against the rules to be happy.

Now, if the society gave access to these individuals to be part of the humanity these people will actually retrieve their love for themselves. In other terms if this minority gets respect , it will respect in return.
As we speak, somewhere, out there, there must be a child abuse in progress. That person will probably feel no regret for a flaw society to his eyes. So he will commit the crime. That child will be affected for the rest of his life but this monster will not feel any regrets.

I live in Montreal. A lot of the quebecers are against religion, even the majority I might say. They claim to believe in God but they can't stand religion. As a reason they all seem to have the same back up story: "This priest abused this child". This reason makes them reject religion completely. On the other hand, a pedophile has all the reasons in the world to reject the society. To begging with the fact that the society clearly doesn't want them to be happy. There are these ethical terms in wich it is unacceptable for ideas like "virtual child abuse". They are labeled as sick people, wich they really are. However the society doesn't provide them the slightest chance for them to be happy.

What happens after they will get this "virtual world", wouldn't they want more? like you said. This thirst will never end ? Not very long ago it was wrong to be gay but since the gays were accepted as a normality they seem to ask more and more. They want to be part of the ethical code. They want marriage. How far can this go? If we continue in this direction, will the world become like an abomination? Will it increase the number of gays / pedophiles. Is this going to influence the rest of us in a bad way?

My answers are these:

the pedophiles will realise that the world wants them to be happy and wants them to live heaven. This is a powerful energy of love that will truly revive them. Some of them will avoid consciously causing hell factor to a child. They will realise their heaven will be that child's hell so they will accept with honor the resolution of "virtual world" only. Others, the most ferocious predators that cannot be domesticated with compassion will be offered preys. Someones desire fulfills somonelse's need. A child that has cancer and is in terminal phase would adore to feel the love of a person - not sexually- but to be touched and held in his arms. Nobody else in the world can touch and pet a child with more passion than a pedophile does. It is a great gift when it comes to this. The society will give them a valid reason why they are born like this. They aren't accidents of nature. They are born pedophiles because it is their destiny to heal the hearts of the dieing young ones. Personally if I had cancer when I was 6 years old I would prefer to be held in the arms of a pedophile more than my own mother because I would feel his happiness. My own mother would cause me hell because I feel her sadness, her constant depression because she will loose me. Now, I wouldn't love to be penetrated in the ass by the pedophile. That is just too much. This would cause me hell so if that pedophile doesn't realise it, this is when we can say that Anarchy will never be possible. The people will always need to follow certain rules of the society and fear the consequences. Basically, not everything can be tolerated but everything can be improved.


To finish, I wanna say that when we are talking about animals, yes, the weakest, the oldest, the hurt will be likely the prey and the strongest, the fittest will survive and not the other way around. But when we are talking about humans it is more than just surviving. We care about spiritual surviving / our ambition to survive after we die. There are no the fittest nor the strongest, there are only matches. I can match with my girlfriend (I dont have one) because she is much more beautiful than me but less intelligent (*cough) but I will never match with a child nor another man. That makes us both weak and strong at the same time. A pathological killer will match with a physical suffering person from terminal disease. That makes them stronger than everyone else and weaker at the same time. ( I couldn't euthanasiate a person ever i my life, even if u give me 1000000 dollars, I just can't kill because I would have nightmares for the rest of my life). Someones desire is somone elses need.

Well that's a hell of a reply.

[methylatedghosts]

What happens after they will get this "virtual world", wouldn't they want more? like you said. This thirst will never end ? Not very long ago it was wrong to be gay but since the gays were accepted as a normality they seem to ask more and more. They want to be part of the ethical code. They want marriage. How far can this go? If we continue in this direction, will the world become like an abomination? Will it increase the number of gays / pedophiles. Is this going to influence the rest of us in a bad way?

Ok, but gay people do not hurt others that aren't consenting. Lets please on rag on gay people in this thread, I think we get enough of this. Lets just stick to the illegal stuff like paedophilia/murder/rape k?

My answers are these:

the pedophiles will realise that the world wants them to be happy and wants them to live heaven. This is a powerful energy of love that will truly revive them. Some of them will avoid consciously causing hell factor to a child. They will realise their heaven will be that child's hell so they will accept with honor the resolution of "virtual world" only. Others, the most ferocious predators that cannot be domesticated with compassion will be offered preys. Someones desire fulfills somonelse's need. A child that has cancer and is in terminal phase would adore to feel the love of a person - not sexually- but to be touched and held in his arms. Nobody else in the world can touch and pet a child with more passion than a pedophile does. It is a great gift when it comes to this. The society will give them a valid reason why they are born like this. They aren't accidents of nature. They are born pedophiles because it is their destiny to heal the hearts of the dieing young ones. Personally if I had cancer when I was 6 years old I would prefer to be held in the arms of a pedophile more than my own mother because I would feel his happiness. My own mother would cause me hell because I feel her sadness, her constant depression because she will loose me. Now, I wouldn't love to be penetrated in the ass by the pedophile. That is just too much. This would cause me hell so if that pedophile doesn't realise it, this is when we can say that Anarchy will never be possible. The people will always need to follow certain rules of the society and fear the consequences. Basically, not everything can be tolerated but everything can be improved.


To finish, I wanna say that when we are talking about animals, yes, the weakest, the oldest, the hurt will be likely the prey and the strongest, the fittest will survive and not the other way around. But when we are talking about humans it is more than just surviving. We care about spiritual surviving / our ambition to survive after we die. There are no the fittest nor the strongest, there are only matches. I can match with my girlfriend (I dont have one) because she is much more beautiful than me but less intelligent (*cough) but I will never match with a child nor another man. That makes us both weak and strong at the same time. A pathological killer will match with a physical suffering person from terminal disease. That makes them stronger than everyone else and weaker at the same time. ( I couldn't euthanasiate a person ever i my life, even if u give me 1000000 dollars, I just can't kill because I would have nightmares for the rest of my life). Someones desire is somone elses need.

Well that's a hell of a reply.

Ok, I see what you're saying. To put it very simply, it's "satisfy their urges in a virtual world so they may function normally in society they know loves them"

But I would go it a different method. To prevent these people causing "hell" for another will, regardless of method, require intensive work.

I would put these paedophiles through a form of therapy, where they come out knowing, that society loves them for who they are not for what they have done. They would also know that they are unique people and they have gifts. They would know that their actions can hurt people, and they would therefore not act in such a way that hurts others, not because of the repercussions, but because they do not want to hurt another.

The problem with this is that it requires very intensive one-on-one therapy, and even then, it may not work all the time.

At the end of the day, it is such a sensitive subject to confront someone with and basically say "we want to fix you" when in their mind, they aren't broken. It is difficult enough to confront a problem gambler (my mate works at a casino) than it would be to talk to a paedophile.

-------------mind blank. Will come back sometime

[veinmetal]

What happens after they will get this "virtual world", wouldn't they want more? like you said. This thirst will never end ? Not very long ago it was wrong to be gay but since the gays were accepted as a normality they seem to ask more and more. They want to be part of the ethical code. They want marriage. How far can this go? If we continue in this direction, will the world become like an abomination? Will it increase the number of gays / pedophiles. Is this going to influence the rest of us in a bad way?

Ok, but gay people do not hurt others that aren't consenting. Lets please on rag on gay people in this thread, I think we get enough of this. Lets just stick to the illegal stuff like paedophilia/murder/rape k?

My answers are these:

the pedophiles will realise that the world wants them to be happy and wants them to live heaven. This is a powerful energy of love that will truly revive them. Some of them will avoid consciously causing hell factor to a child. They will realise their heaven will be that child's hell so they will accept with honor the resolution of "virtual world" only. Others, the most ferocious predators that cannot be domesticated with compassion will be offered preys. Someones desire fulfills somonelse's need. A child that has cancer and is in terminal phase would adore to feel the love of a person - not sexually- but to be touched and held in his arms. Nobody else in the world can touch and pet a child with more passion than a pedophile does. It is a great gift when it comes to this. The society will give them a valid reason why they are born like this. They aren't accidents of nature. They are born pedophiles because it is their destiny to heal the hearts of the dieing young ones. Personally if I had cancer when I was 6 years old I would prefer to be held in the arms of a pedophile more than my own mother because I would feel his happiness. My own mother would cause me hell because I feel her sadness, her constant depression because she will loose me. Now, I wouldn't love to be penetrated in the ass by the pedophile. That is just too much. This would cause me hell so if that pedophile doesn't realise it, this is when we can say that Anarchy will never be possible. The people will always need to follow certain rules of the society and fear the consequences. Basically, not everything can be tolerated but everything can be improved.


To finish, I wanna say that when we are talking about animals, yes, the weakest, the oldest, the hurt will be likely the prey and the strongest, the fittest will survive and not the other way around. But when we are talking about humans it is more than just surviving. We care about spiritual surviving / our ambition to survive after we die. There are no the fittest nor the strongest, there are only matches. I can match with my girlfriend (I dont have one) because she is much more beautiful than me but less intelligent (*cough) but I will never match with a child nor another man. That makes us both weak and strong at the same time. A pathological killer will match with a physical suffering person from terminal disease. That makes them stronger than everyone else and weaker at the same time. ( I couldn't euthanasiate a person ever i my life, even if u give me 1000000 dollars, I just can't kill because I would have nightmares for the rest of my life). Someones desire is somone elses need.

Well that's a hell of a reply.

Ok, I see what you're saying. To put it very simply, it's "satisfy their urges in a virtual world so they may function normally in society they know loves them"

But I would go it a different method. To prevent these people causing "hell" for another will, regardless of method, require intensive work.

I would put these paedophiles through a form of therapy, where they come out knowing, that society loves them for who they are not for what they have done. They would also know that they are unique people and they have gifts. They would know that their actions can hurt people, and they would therefore not act in such a way that hurts others, not because of the repercussions, but because they do not want to hurt another.

The problem with this is that it requires very intensive one-on-one therapy, and even then, it may not work all the time.

At the end of the day, it is such a sensitive subject to confront someone with and basically say "we want to fix you" when in their mind, they aren't broken. It is difficult enough to confront a problem gambler (my mate works at a casino) than it would be to talk to a paedophile.

-------------mind blank. Will come back sometime

[veinmetal]

I didn't reply in a while because I didn't know what else to add. Now that I came back I just wanted to point out where was this idea of mine came from and why would I care.

-Am I a pedophile? No, I love women 20-30 years old.
-Am I a born killer? No, I can't kill a human being. If I go to war I would probably get shot because I wouldn't shoot a single bullet.
-Did I suffered in my life? Yeah, kinda. Like most people I guess. For no particular serious reason. So this is probably the source to why would I bring such a subject.

I tried to listen to my heart and understand why I don't want to succeed in the society. I've never really wished to become somone... a doctor, a cop, a respected man for a high social status.. And why? I mean, as a doctor you get so many rewards... $$$$, the cool feeling that ou save lives. You may feel accomplished. And yet I didn't want all that for a any given second. Accepting what we are is one thing but it's harder to accept the fact that we can be something better and don't know how to get there even if it's 3 meters away. I am far from accepting what we are. The society is so flawd.

And I thought to myself : "What if each person on Earth has a small part in their subconscious that will refuse your will to be fully happy? So why would this small part of your subconscious will refuse you to be fully happy? Because this tiny part in your brain contains your defaults... and this tiny part containing your defalts sympathises with some other people's defaults. People have more or less defaults. Paedophiles for instance have one of the most atrocious default humanty has ever known. Condemning these people is simply letting your tiny imperfect part of your sconscious never forgive you. Let's say these imperfections are part of you but they can never be erased or changed.

To make it more simple I will use an example again:

Jean sees a paeodophile on TV. "Die child fucker die. Somone kill him!!!!" thinks Jean.
Jean is 34. He used to be a good student but he never finished his highschool. He thinks he is not so lucky in life because he never had a good sense of humour, he never had success with women. Although he tried, he tried so hard. He envies those guys that are "cool" "chick magnets" and he wishes he was like them. He wishes he was borned like them, not change into them. This single thought makes him forget the rest and poisons his life. This is the main reason he didn't followed his studies.

Now let's see this. Jean has a strong opinion about pedophiles. We don't know if he assumes paedophiles choose their life or they are born that way. It dosn't really matter, he hates them. What he doesn't know it's he's atacking at the same time a part of himself... that part wich lacks humour and natural charisma. And that part of himself will never die. That part will stay alive as long as he will live and will never forgive him for not accepting "her" as a part of his personality. That weakness of his is a friend with the pedophile more than it is with Jean.


What do people want the most in life? To be happy. That is by far the most common answer. So what if there's an actual miracle solution? What if trying to fix these tiny details will actually greatly improves everyone life by 1000% ? Would it be possible? This isn't looking for perfection. It's looking out for somone weaker as f you look for your own weaknesses.

[palmera]

veinmetal,
I understand that you're ideas are well intentioned, but they would only further harm society. The details and assumptions of your social program must be critiqued. First, you assume that everyone will buy into the heaven/hell scheme, and that if not, that people will genuinely care if others are happy and will go to great lengths to see that this is so. (I'll second the suggestion made earlier that homosexuality has no place in this conversation when compared to murder and rape.) You assume that what murderers and rapists feel is genuine happiness in the act. I would suggest that it's something more akin to an adrenaline rush. The two are not mutually inclusive. Further, you assume that all killers and rapists suffer from mental disorders. You fail to account for various types of murders (like those committed out of passion or out of racism) and you fail to account for the socio-economic realities of those who do commit such heinous acts against other humans.
Now, when talking about serial killers/rapists and certain pedophiles who may indeed gain great pleasure from their perverse acts, encouraging them (let's face it, that's what it is) to live out their fantasies in VR is like putting a raging alcoholic in a liquor store but not allowing him/her to drink. Not only will encouraging them to live out their fantasies perpetuate the problem, but, because it doesn't treat the problem, there's no way to socialize these individuals back into society. Not to mention, the temptations offered them might drive them insane. And last, this program would in no way deter further crime. Instead, some might as well be tempted to kill another since they know they'll spend their days playing video games on the tax payers dollars.

[veinmetal]

veinmetal,
I understand that you're ideas are well intentioned, but they would only further harm society.

This is why some people should never be leaders for a country or a cult. Somone like me could be fanatic into his own ideology that will do what it takes to see it become reality. After you wrote this sentence I kinda felt what you were going to write after and that I would agree.

First, you assume that everyone will buy into the heaven/hell scheme, and that if not, that people will genuinely care if others are happy and will go to great lengths to see that this is so.

It's like a bait. To motivate people to care about everyone there must be a reward.

(I'll second the suggestion made earlier that homosexuality has no place in this conversation when compared to murder and rape.)

ok, agreed.

You assume that what murderers and rapists feel is genuine happiness in the act. I would suggest that it's something more akin to an adrenaline rush. The two are not mutually inclusive. Further, you assume that all killers and rapists suffer from mental disorders. You fail to account for various types of murders (like those committed out of passion or out of racism) and you fail to account for the socio-economic realities of those who do commit such heinous acts against other humans.

Yeah, I kinda chose to see only what I wanted to see wich is totally wrong. Myself, I could probably kill somone out of jealousy (I hope not & I think not). On the other hand I could be right about specifically the mentally ill criminals, that it is not only an adrenaline rush but far more complex state of mind.
Now that you've mentioned the heaven/hell scheme.. someone that would understand this ideology and if believed in, he/she would never commit such act. If you take for example Christianity.. if somone commits a criminal act.. let's just say he/she will start praying God and he will get the feeling as if he is forgiven. The religion itself doesn't offer a clear emotional barrier to avoid somone from a love revenge. But if you believe that you build your heaven/hell then you might probably think twice about revenge, because this ideology of mine reaches the core of each human being from an egoistical point of view as if each person is more important to one-self more than God Himself. So basically he will probably never forgive himself in the echo of eternity.

Now, when talking about serial killers/rapists and certain pedophiles who may indeed gain great pleasure from their perverse acts, encouraging them (let's face it, that's what it is) to live out their fantasies in VR is like putting a raging alcoholic in a liquor store but not allowing him/her to drink. Not only will encouraging them to live out their fantasies perpetuate the problem, but, because it doesn't treat the problem, there's no way to socialize these individuals back into society. Not to mention, the temptations offered them might drive them insane. And last, this program would in no way deter further crime. Instead, some might as well be tempted to kill another since they know they'll spend their days playing video games on the tax payers dollars.

I don't know what to answer to this because you seem to be right. I will try to think it over and over again.


Thank you for your reply.

[palmera]

Right on. I have to admit, I've long harbored thoughts that we should let the murderers rapists and child molesters loose on their own little island. Of course this would be the very paragon of cruel and unusual punishment, but I think it would be interesting to see what would happen..... I'm a horrible person.

[veinmetal]

Right on. I have to admit, I've long harbored thoughts that we should let the murderers rapists and child molesters loose on their own little island. Of course this would be the very paragon of cruel and unusual punishment, but I think it would be interesting to see what would happen..... I'm a horrible person.

They would kill each other. But then again that wouldn't be a solution to the issue. New nut cases will reapear in the "healthy" world. It's not like a virus on the computer that you can just clear with an anti virus. You can compare it with your anus. It stinks, it's ugly but it is part of your body, the poo is coming out through it. You gotta live with it, wash it and shave it.

A man wants to die, another wants to kill him. The society might not be thrilled but these 2 yeah.
A child is about to die, he wants to be hugged, a man wants to hug him. His mother might not be thrilled but the child and the old man are a perfect happy couple.