Question to/about Americans.

[Scrotum]

As you all know (oldies) i have not been very active during the last year or so. I apologize for this and wish to point out that i Love this site. I think Otseng, even the Theist (JOKE) scumm He is , has created a very FAIR and open debate forum for all of us, and I can find very few Forums like this.

As a starter, I will go on the General Chat and talk Americans, as most of you are americans, and simple ask some questions, and I would like to have Your, Honest View about it.


I was sitting and "watching" a movie called "War of the World" with a Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise (dont remember), i only remember the original book/movie, so this was "interesting" to watch. Several (Everything happen in the U.S) of the people stated "how could they defeat the greatest power in the World" several times, and it was clear they refered to the United States (As americans generally dont know anything about the rest of the World), and it came to me like a Flash, Could This be the reason why Americans believe they are the best in the world?

Historically we know the basis for the general ignorance about the World americans Hold (Note: The AVERAGE American), I do not know if americans themselves know this, as I understood american History is not very accurate, but as refreshment for the New Generation:

During the Beginning and End of Second World War, the american population had little or no knowledge about what was actually going on. The U.S, both people and Government had seen Chancellor Adolf Hitler as a great rolemodel, but as the War in Europe Began, all that was ignored/pretended never to have been said, and now Germany was "Evil", and Adolf Hitler was a "Bad Guy". The so called Holocaust was not known until after the war, which most contemporary americans have no knowledge about.

When the war finally "Finished" (Officially), the american government did not tell the american people that it was the Soviet Union whom actually dealt with the War, whiles the U.S only sent an equal amount of troops to the British. Actually, 80% of the German Army (The most powerfull and skilled Army in the World during this time) was fought by the Soviet Union, which was also seen as "Evil" (The Allies).

The Government instead avoided talking about it, and let the americna people believe They where the ones "taking care of business", and said nothing about the Soviets. 60 Years later, the people still believe this, and seemingly the American History books have been altered to fit the fale propaganda, and personally, I believe that the lied so much to themselves, Both choosen Government, as well as the people, that they seriously believe their own lies.


Could this be the case?

Americans rarely admits anyone else being "Better" then them, and simple ignore Reality. Especially when it comes to the Evil/Jealous Europeans. But at the Same time, BMW, Mercedes, Ferrary are all seen as a sign of "Best" / "Superiority" Etc, all European Cars. I know States and counties whom have the funds, would change their Police cars into Swedish Volvos instead, as they are of better quality then American Cars.

We should not even talk about the Mobile Phone Industries, which the U.S are years behind compared to Europe and Asia.


But this is no Bash, this is rather self-reflection, Could what i say be True !?



BIG NOTE: This is about the AVERAGE, General American, We all have Idiots and Morrons everywhere. Just a General View.

[Confused]

I have no idea what "Swedish Inventions" have anything to do with this. As i said, and Furrowed Brow made the point, I was talking about American Arrogance thats so ingrained in the American Society that they dont know it themselves.

If Inventions are important, this Site
is readable, and i recommend it. Do you know anything about Sweden (Its a country in Northern Europe).


Sweden did quite a deal, but you would not know about it, as this would demand Education about Europe, which i rarely seen in the country (Yes i lived there). One guy, which you probably know about as there is a movie about him, called Schindler got Jews out because of a man named Wallenberg (very famous in the world). Other things would be ammounition that did not work (supplied by Sweden), and a freeground for hundreds of thousands of refuges.

And Yes, The Holocaust was NOT KNOW ABOUT until the Soviet Army FOUND THE FIRST extermination Camp.

Well err sorry I don't think I implied American's were arrogant. In fact the ones I've met are very polite and interested. Though that would be the kind of Americans who are visiting Europe. I can't speak for the ones I have not met.

I do feel there has been a deep anti American sentiment, which has been exacerbated by the Iraq war, but it was there prior to 9/11. I see it here in the UK.

The point I was really making in my last post was that WWII was predominantly a Nazi German/Soviet war. The Eastern front being the major front. Whilst America and the Allies played a minor secondary role. Now if I had said that to my gran who lived through WWII she would have spluttered up her cup of tea. From her perspective (and people of her generation) the war was Britain versus Nazi Germany - and the Soviets had hardly anything to do with it.

I've just watched a documentary this afternoon where it was argued the real winners of WWII was the Soviets and communism. This is the kind of viewpoint that has been lacking I think.

I don't know that I would say America played a minor secondary role. I will say agree and say that Russia fought long and hard and were a dominant force, but I don't know that I could say that had American not gotten involved, Russia and any other allied forces could have prevented the Germans victory. But since we can't change the past to see what would have happened had X or Y not happened, so I can only say that I wouldn't consider the US a secondary minor role.

I think every society has their fair share of an arrogant population. The resentment of America amongst Europe is hardly knew. But I would hope that most educated citizens of both cultures wouldn't be included in that population. But as I said earlier, if you want arrogance, you need not cross and ocean to find it in the US, look to France first. But hey, just a personal opinion.

[Furrowed Brow]

Hi Confused,

I don't know that I would say America played a minor secondary role.

Well on the Western Front the US intervention was decisive. But then so was the Russian winter. But those death tolls tell their own story. Also look at the percentage of the populations. The point I think I am trying to make is that he greatest part of the story of WWII took place on the Eastern front.

WWII goes deep into the the British psyche. Churchill was recently voted the greatest Britain in history. And I can go along with that. Britain stood alone and made its own vital contribution - But......I also know the Russians were putting brick dust as a bulking agent into their bread.

Put this the other way around. Lets play pretend. Say it was not Nazi Germany, but Nazi south American country. A war takes place in which America loses 14% of its population. Britain and Europe help out, but their loses are in the order of 0.5%. However their supplies and intervention proves vital. Hey this time the Brits have the smart uniforms, chocolate bars and nylons for the girls. It is not just that the American economy goes into recession. There is no economy. You are bulking up bread with brick dust, and boiling the glue off wall paper for soup (that was the germans in WWII) By opening up a decisive southern front, allied victory is ensured.

But who played the major role in the war? Who played the secondary role?

[Furrowed Brow]

I think patriotism is why people refer to their country being the best in the world. I don't think you can single America out on this one.

But patriotism takes different forms.

My memory is a bit hazy but I saw a programme a while back. It was a documentary that set up a social experiment. A hotel was set up with hidden cameras. Each week guests arrived from different nations. During the week different set ups were arranged to see how each nationality reacted. On the whole the Brits came as as the biggest boozers, and the most rowdy. The Brits also laughed together the most.

One set up was the burning of the relevant national flag. Most nationalities Brits, Germans, Japanese took relatively little notice. In fact the Brits were the most apathetic. They really did not care. The Americans on the other hand were shocked. One guy collected the ashes and remains of the flag to take home to bury on American soil.

I can give you a gold plated guarantee no Brit would do that in a million years.

Correct me if I'm wrong do American school kids sing the national anthem everyday? I doubt whether the majority of kids in the UK know what the national anthem is let alone know the words.

[ManBearPig]

Hmm Confused, you're getting awfully defensive. And then by throwing a little French-bashing in there, I feel like you're starting to prove Scrotum's point...

I think America is probably much more nationalistic than other western nations, though Scrotum I don't think it has anything to do with your kooky theory. By the way, we do actually have history scholars over here, and the government doesn't write our textbooks. Now I'm getting defensive! .

No, seriously, the average American doesn't even know any of those details you're talking about (when the first death camp was found, what the US attitude toward Hitler was, etc.)

Here's where I think any arrogance comes from:
10% - WWII, but just a general sense that the US "saved" Western Europe, though I think most Americans know that the US came in pretty late.
60% - Immense economic, military, and cultural influence over the western world
30% - Geographic isolation, e.g., we just don't get a whole lot of Swedish culture over here

I also read once that Americans are so much more nationalistic than Europeans because Europe has experienced the negative consequences of uber nationalism, those being WWI and WWII. We really haven't over here.

Furrowed, naw, our kids don't sing the anthem, though they do recite the Pledge of Allegiance everyday. A little 30-second diddy. Honestly though, it's so rote that I doubt most kids even think about what it means .

[Confused]

Hmm Confused, you're getting awfully defensive. And then by throwing a little French-bashing in there, I feel like you're starting to prove Scrotum's point...

I think America is probably much more nationalistic than other western nations, though Scrotum I don't think it has anything to do with your kooky theory. By the way, we do actually have history scholars over here, and the government doesn't write our textbooks. Now I'm getting defensive! .

No, seriously, the average American doesn't even know any of those details you're talking about (when the first death camp was found, what the US attitude toward Hitler was, etc.)

Here's where I think any arrogance comes from:
10% - WWII, but just a general sense that the US "saved" Western Europe, though I think most Americans know that the US came in pretty late.
60% - Immense economic, military, and cultural influence over the western world
30% - Geographic isolation, e.g., we just don't get a whole lot of Swedish culture over here

I also read once that Americans are so much more nationalistic than Europeans because Europe has experienced the negative consequences of uber nationalism, those being WWI and WWII. We really haven't over here.

Furrowed, naw, our kids don't sing the anthem, though they do recite the Pledge of Allegiance everyday. A little 30-second diddy. Honestly though, it's so rote that I doubt most kids even think about what it means .

Defensive, to a degree. I bring up France because I did a semester abroad in Paris for virology. Though I was respectful enough to learn the language before arriving, I can say that an average of 8 out of 10 thought Americans to be uncivilized pigs. These were exact words. So yes, I do get a bit defensive when other countries are judging ours as if theirs was perfect. Do I see myself as arrogant? No, please, I was born poor white trash, hardly anything to be arrogant about. I raised my level up on my own, so proud yes, arrogant no.

[Furrowed Brow]

Hi ManBearPig

Furrowed, naw, our kids don't sing the anthem, though they do recite the Pledge of Allegiance everyday. A little 30-second diddy. Honestly though, it's so rote that I doubt most kids even think about what it means .

It is still interesting to compare. I really don't think that a "Pledge of Allegiance" would ever get off the ground in the UK; nor even be regarded as a healthy thing.

[Scrotum]

Defensive, to a degree. I bring up France because I did a semester abroad in Paris for virology. Though I was respectful enough to learn the language before arriving, I can say that an average of 8 out of 10 thought Americans to be uncivilized pigs. These were exact words. So yes, I do get a bit defensive when other countries are judging ours as if theirs was perfect. Do I see myself as arrogant? No, please, I was born poor white trash, hardly anything to be arrogant about. I raised my level up on my own, so proud yes, arrogant no.

So, does that mean you would not agree with them?

You did not think about why they would say this? They must get this view from somewhere. And there are far more French whom visit Unted States compared to Americans going to France, most americans can not afford to go abroad ever in their life time. Did you think about why their perception would be like that?

Oh, stupid me, of course you did, They must be Jealous, right? (Of what btw?)

Hmm Confused, you're getting awfully defensive. And then by throwing a little French-bashing in there, I feel like you're starting to prove Scrotum's point...

Of course. What i said about the Second World War was all True, but my opinions about it may not be agreed of course. But they still argue that it was "The United States" whom "Free the world" yadayadayada. Even when all figures say diferent.

The British, however patriotic, would not downplay Soviets role, especially not when we have even a better idea of the figures and fights fought since the Collaps of USSR. But the americans will, always.

I don't know that I would say America played a minor secondary role. I will say agree and say that Russia fought long and hard and were a dominant force, but I don't know that I could say that had American not gotten involved, Russia and any other allied forces could have prevented the Germans victory. But since we can't change the past to see what would have happened had X or Y not happened, so I can only say that I wouldn't consider the US a secondary minor role.

Are you serious?

Did you know that the Red Army became literally unstoppable, and only halted at Berlin because Stalin did not want any more conflict. He, that is, Soviet Union could easily have taken over the rest of Europe, and the U.S would never ever have been able to prevent it.

You do not seem to understand the numbers here, you seem to have played to much american based games, and think One U.S Soldier can kill thousands of "enemy armies". The U.S supplied the SAME AMOUNT as the British forces in Europe, THATS IT. That was all.

Almost all campaigns was done by the British with American help (when they finally joined the fight). 20% of the Army was fought by British, American, French, Norwegian, Danish etc Armies, the rest, was taken in the East. By The Soviet Union.

You do know East and West, right?


Sorry, but this is just silly.

[Confused]

Defensive, to a degree. I bring up France because I did a semester abroad in Paris for virology. Though I was respectful enough to learn the language before arriving, I can say that an average of 8 out of 10 thought Americans to be uncivilized pigs. These were exact words. So yes, I do get a bit defensive when other countries are judging ours as if theirs was perfect. Do I see myself as arrogant? No, please, I was born poor white trash, hardly anything to be arrogant about. I raised my level up on my own, so proud yes, arrogant no.

So, does that mean you would not agree with them?

You did not think about why they would say this? They must get this view from somewhere. And there are far more French whom visit Unted States compared to Americans going to France, most americans can not afford to go abroad ever in their life time. Did you think about why their perception would be like that?

Oh, stupid me, of course you did, They must be Jealous, right? (Of what btw?)

Hmm Confused, you're getting awfully defensive. And then by throwing a little French-bashing in there, I feel like you're starting to prove Scrotum's point...

Of course. What i said about the Second World War was all True, but my opinions about it may not be agreed of course. But they still argue that it was "The United States" whom "Free the world" yadayadayada. Even when all figures say diferent.

The British, however patriotic, would not downplay Soviets role, especially not when we have even a better idea of the figures and fights fought since the Collaps of USSR. But the americans will, always.

I don't know that I would say America played a minor secondary role. I will say agree and say that Russia fought long and hard and were a dominant force, but I don't know that I could say that had American not gotten involved, Russia and any other allied forces could have prevented the Germans victory. But since we can't change the past to see what would have happened had X or Y not happened, so I can only say that I wouldn't consider the US a secondary minor role.

Are you serious?

Did you know that the Red Army became literally unstoppable, and only halted at Berlin because Stalin did not want any more conflict. He, that is, Soviet Union could easily have taken over the rest of Europe, and the U.S would never ever have been able to prevent it.

You do not seem to understand the numbers here, you seem to have played to much american based games, and think One U.S Soldier can kill thousands of "enemy armies". The U.S supplied the SAME AMOUNT as the British forces in Europe, THATS IT. That was all.

Almost all campaigns was done by the British with American help (when they finally joined the fight). 20% of the Army was fought by British, American, French, Norwegian, Danish etc Armies, the rest, was taken in the East. By The Soviet Union.

You do know East and West, right?


Sorry, but this is just silly.

And you seem to think that by continuing to make baseless comments you somehow make sense. You assume jealous, this from a man who thinks womans orgasms are as useless as mans tits. You will have to forgive me if your input is more than off base and irrelevant. I dont' recall any American History course I have ever taken undermining the role of the Soviet Union or overestimating the role of the United States. Tell me, what history text are you using to make the assumption that Americans are playing the big bad dominant force you seem to want to make us out to be?

[juliod]

Coming in late.

Did you know that the Red Army became literally unstoppable, and only halted at Berlin because Stalin did not want any more conflict. He, that is, Soviet Union could easily have taken over the rest of Europe, and the U.S would never ever have been able to prevent it.

This is anachronistic nonsense.

You're forgetting (or don't know) about the massive scale of US aid to the USSR. 15 million pairs of boots; 250,000 trucks; 30,000 tanks; and piles and piles of everything else.

It's true that WWII was fought and won by the Soviet army, but that army would not have been able to move, much less fight, without this aid.

That being said, I do think that few americans know anything about the war except that we won.

DanZ

[juliod]

Americans rarely admits anyone else being "Better" then them, and simple ignore Reality.

I can give a good example of "issues" with US industry. There are, at the current time (AFAIK) zero manufacturers of optical microscopes in the US. That's shocking, given the size of the US market for research/clinical scopes.

You can buy cheap (and crappy) scopes made in China, or else buy high end scopes made only in Germany or Japan. I'm going with Zeiss.

But I still don't know what to make of it.

Also, BTW, the 122mm main gun of the M1A1 tank is German too. (Manufactured under license, I understand).

DanZ