Can atheists and believers agree in one religion?

[przemeknowicki]

I am thinking of retirement and about summarizing my life experiences in a book on politics and religion. I hope it is not against the rules of this forum to point you to my website because I need it to start the discussion.
Here it is www.freedomgates.net
Please skip the political part and read what I had to say in the religion section.
Tell me please if you have any thoughts, comments, agreements and disagreements. Forums have always been my best inspiration and I hope again to gather more material for my book. I hope to learn from you.

Thank you for participating.

Thomas Orr (my assumed name)

[Corvus]

Corvus, don't you think that speaking of God is always something of a paradox? Those who have a clear message don't need God to capture the hearts of wise people. Remove God from your message and God will fill your message with His spirit. The more you talk about God the more distant you are from Him.

I don’t really understand what you mean here. Based on the rest of your message, I think what you are saying is that God should not be regarded as some vague concept of goodness or a despotic creator, but that one should simply do what might be termed “godly things” (good actions) so as to bring about a heavenly kingdom on earth, and everything else should follow. Correct me if I have misunderstood your beliefs.

My own perception is that those who search for God are those that never find him. To me, God and pleasure are one, and to find God, all one has to do is put all their happiness into the present moment. (As you are probably aware, I am agnostic. Though I don’t know whether a god in the traditional meaning of the word exists, I am inclined to believing he does not)

But, Nathaniel, let your waiting be not even a longing, but simply a welcoming. Welcome everything that comes to you, but do not long for anything else. Long only for what you have. Understand that at every moment of the day God in His entirety may be yours. Let the longing be love and your possession a lover’s. For what is a longing that is not effectual?

What, Nathaniel, you possess God, without being aware of it! To possess God is to see Him, but you do not look. Balaam, did you not see God who stood in your way and from whom your ass turned aside? Because you had imagined Him otherwise.
Nathaniel, God must not be awaited. Who awaits God, Nathaniel, fails to understand he possesses Him. Believe that God and happiness are one, and put all your happiness in your present moment.
-Andre Gide

My point is that your dissecting of the Bible and Christian beliefs is only an intellectual exercise demonstrating your good logic and debating skills. Unfortunately it leads nowhere as far as pursuit of the truth is concerned. This is not to criticize your postings. Just an observation

I think by “the truth” you mean “Truth”. This appears to have different meanings to different people. To philosophers, it is a reality that cannot be perceived. I am not completely certain about this, but Christians seem to use it to indicate either the truth about God and heaven or some sort of spiritual understanding. Judging from the context, I would say you take “Truth” to mean the pursuit of an ideal of justice, equality and perhaps right and wrong, and if I have not misunderstood you, I would readily agree that my writings do nothing to further that particular brand of Truth except perhaps to recognise some areas where it appears to be lacking. Actions do speak louder than words and good intentions alone achieve very little.

[Amadeus]

People that seek God do find him (or are mislead into believing in a false god). If someone is not seeking God, in most cases he is too content with his present beliefs to open his heart and mind to anything else.

A seeker is almost necessary.

[Bro Dave]

People that seek God do find him (or are mislead into believing in a false god). If someone is not seeking God, in most cases he is too content with his present beliefs to open his heart and mind to anything else.

A seeker is almost necessary.

Amadeus, that is not even what the BIBLE says! Please, God IS consistant. That is one area where we should agree. God constantly is whispering to ALL his kid, "this is the way", and any who seek God, will surely find Him. It's a guarantee! I suspect the problem you are having, is that everyone does not agree in their discovery of the Infinite. That is to be expected. Our visions of God has to be very limited, and therefore distorted. However, God knows us, and when we seek Him, he shows Himself to us in whatever way we can understand.

Bro Dave

[BeHereNow]

Corvus writes:

My own perception is that those who search for God are those that never find him. To me, God and pleasure are one, and to find God, all one has to do is put all their happiness into the present moment. (As you are probably aware, I am agnostic. Though I don’t know whether a god in the traditional meaning of the word exists, I am inclined to believing he does not)
But, Nathaniel, let your waiting be not even a longing, but simply a welcoming. Welcome everything that comes to you, but do not long for anything else. Long only for what you have. Understand that at every moment of the day God in His entirety may be yours. Let the longing be love and your possession a lover’s. For what is a longing that is not effectual?

What, Nathaniel, you possess God, without being aware of it! To possess God is to see Him, but you do not look. Balaam, did you not see God who stood in your way and from whom your ass turned aside? Because you had imagined Him otherwise.
Nathaniel, God must not be awaited. Who awaits God, Nathaniel, fails to understand he possesses Him. Believe that God and happiness are one, and put all your happiness in your present moment.
-Andre Gide

This is good Zen!

I suspect the problem you are having, is that everyone does not agree in there discovery of the Infinite.

Go Bro Dave!
We do have much in common.
There are many paths up the mountain. Zen is not the path, but rather a finger pointing the way.

[przemeknowicki]

I have been to Freedom Gates.
It was hard to tell if the words went from the page to my mind, or from my mind to the page.
So many thoughts that I’ve had but you’ve expressed them so succinctly.
I have a prophet, and his name is Thomas Orr.

Thank you. Now I have a follower and His name is BeHereNow. Wow, it is a little scary because of responsibilities involved.

Well, on a serious note. You praise me for expressing my (your?) thoughts well. I am not satisfied yet. The job is not finished and you can help. In a sense you did already. I followed the links to discussion forums you attend and found many interesting postings.

I need to write more about friendship and the spiritual value of the true friendship. Yogananda said that finding friends and cultivating one's friendships is the next best thing after meditation and devotion one can have in this life. I totally agree and as a politician I can appreciate friendship even more. Friendship is a true foundation of the community and better than religion in keeping the community united. Our egos bring rivalry and power struggles to our lifes; friendship brings respect and equality. History tells us that friendship can bring even kings and their subjects to the same level. Friendship enriches our lifes and brings new meaning and new joys to it. Friendship teaches us how to break the limits of our little egos and extend our love, kindness and compassion to others. We love our families instinctively but in friendship we learn how to do it not by blind instinct but by the conscious and enlightening decision.

If you find time and inspiration please contribute to the Freedom Gates movement. Your thoughts, suggestions, interesting links are welcome. Freedom Gates is not about a prophet. It is about the idea fit for the new millennium.

Thomas Orr

[przemeknowicki]

I don’t really understand what you mean here. Based on the rest of your message, I think what you are saying is that God should not be regarded as some vague concept of goodness or a despotic creator, but that one should simply do what might be termed “godly things” (good actions) so as to bring about a heavenly kingdom on earth, and everything else should follow. Correct me if I have misunderstood your beliefs.

Corvus, my post was not very serious. I know how you present yourself in this forum. Some of the things I threw into my message were in agreement with your ideas. Some were intended to puzzle you. Here is what I meant in the first paragraph. Let's put aside the question if God exists. Maybe we cannot prove or disprove the existence of God but we can definitely prove that God, if exists, does not wish nor is He interested in people talking or speculating about Him, and of course much less He approves our fighting over Him and/or killing in His name. Therefore, it is OK with God, if He exists, when someone choses to be an atheist. More, people who follow reason rather than faith seem to be favored by God if we interpret what happens to us in this life as how God judges and awards or punishes us. Examples that I use to support my statement are taken not from lifes of individuals (for the simple reason that nobody would agree here with anybody else on such stories/examples) but rather well documented historical facts referring to the life and fortune of nations in different periods of history. In short, tolerance and not talking too loud about one's God pays off.

My own perception is that those who search for God are those that never find him. To me, God and pleasure are one, and to find God, all one has to do is put all their happiness into the present moment. (As you are probably aware, I am agnostic. Though I don’t know whether a god in the traditional meaning of the word exists, I am inclined to believing he does not)

This is a very interesting subject but I am afraid there is no space and time to debate it here. I totally agree with you that the search for God consisting of reading the Bible or following the teachings of organized religions lead nowhere in quest of finding God. But ... there are other venues and there are convincing examples that sometimes the progress can be made.

Regards,

Thomas Orr

[chrispalasz]

Here's my Opinion:

I think it's great that you are considering retirement and want to write a book, especially if you want that book to contain your life experience and conclusions. That's an enormous task and responsibility.

However, there exists a Truth in this world that is much much greater than the conclusions you have drawn in you writings. I want to highly discourage you from stopping where you are, and encourage you to keep going. Keep seeking the best solution.

Your writings contain many errors regarding Christianity. I agree with Amadeus, she speaks my mind on these issues and brings up many good points.

A huge question that I feel you need to explore more is "What is Christianity?" You seem to have scoured your brain for the answer... and what you came up with is the best anyone CAN come up with on their own. But do we have the answer? No. Christ has the answer... and so He is the source you must go to. A lot of time can be spent on this question alone.

You have found your own truth, and you are writing it. It is like many other personal truths in this world. To write something spectacular... find a greater Truth than your own, and seek one greater than yourself to get it.

[chrispalasz]

BroDave:

Amadeus, that is not even what the BIBLE says! Please, God IS consistant. That is one area where we should agree. God constantly is whispering to ALL his kid, "this is the way", and any who seek God, will surely find Him. It's a guarantee!

This is true, and this is why no one is with an excuse come Judgement Day, upon Christ's return.

I suspect the problem you are having, is that everyone does not agree in their discovery of the Infinite. That is to be expected. Our visions of God has to be very limited, and therefore distorted. However, God knows us, and when we seek Him, he shows Himself to us in whatever way we can understand.

This is true. Very true... but only when we seek Him. Those who do not seek Him, do not find Him, which is why people have beleifs apart from His Truth. There is only one Way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ. Those that do not seek Jesus Christ, do not find Him, and do not know God.

[przemeknowicki]

Here's my Opinion:

I think it's great that you are considering retirement and want to write a book, especially if you want that book to contain your life experience and conclusions. That's an enormous task and responsibility.

However, there exists a Truth in this world that is much much greater than the conclusions you have drawn in you writings. I want to highly discourage you from stopping where you are, and encourage you to keep going. Keep seeking the best solution.

Your writings contain many errors regarding Christianity. I agree with Amadeus, she speaks my mind on these issues and brings up many good points.

A huge question that I feel you need to explore more is "What is Christianity?" You seem to have scoured your brain for the answer... and what you came up with is the best anyone CAN come up with on their own. But do we have the answer? No. Christ has the answer... and so He is the source you must go to. A lot of time can be spent on this question alone.

You have found your own truth, and you are writing it. It is like many other personal truths in this world. To write something spectacular... find a greater Truth than your own, and seek one greater than yourself to get it.

Hi GreenLight311,

I am sorry that you didn't understand my writings and I know why. It would help if you explored more the question "What is Christianity?". So, what is it?. I have presented my definition and I would expect my critics to point out the places I have erred.

Now, regarding your view of the world I have to strongly disagree with your assessment that "there is a Truth in this world that is much greater than [your conclusions]." Really? Are all the children fed? Do people live in peace? Do people treat each other with respect? This is what I propose and if you know about the place where "the Truth greater than my conclusions" reigns please show me.

Maybe you just used the wrong words and what you meant is not the "Truth in this world" but the "Truth out of this world". But if this is the case why do you attack my writings? I clearly stated that I am not a spiritual advisor and I am not competing with Christian teachings, or Buddhist teachings, or Yoga teachings, or Atheist teachings. They are all great as far as I am concerned. I only have the problem with the followers of those spiritual teachings when they misbehave and when they betray the spiritual values of their beliefs by mixing them with politics.

I am particularly disappointed with the brand of Christianity you and Amedeus represent. My first accusation is that you lie and use deception in order to recruit people. When some poor soul comes and asks you how to become a Christian your answer is "just accept Jesus in your heart". Lie. The "road to Jesus" gets harder and harder until the convert gets totally brainwashed into giving up on his/her own judgements, ability to think for him/herself and ability to follow his/her own heart, and unquestionably embraces the twisted policies of the church, whatever the particular teachings. Those includes condemning homosexuality, criminalizing what you branded as vices (prostitution, abortion) and imposing on everybody else your "values" in schools and government institutions if possible. You threaten people with eternal damnation and if this fails you try at least to put them in jail, or worse. Your God is scary and He scares people who are looking for love and happiness away.

Although I refrain from siding with any particular system of spiritual beliefs I have to question what you present to the world as the ultimate spiritual treasure. You claim to offer to the world the word of Jesus Christ. Have you seen Christ? Have you experienced Him? Are you experiencing Him in this very moment? These are legitimate questions that every spiritual teacher must be prepared to answer. The failed teachers can only produced failed students. The poor woman who drowned her children was a Christian and so was the husband who allowed a sick person as his wife was to stay at home alone and deal with what she obviously was not prepared to coping with. I am not saying that Christianity produces people who kill their children. I am saying that Christianity produces people who are delusional about the reality.

I would like to reciprocate and offer you a sound advise. Take one year of vacations from the Christianity as you know it and spend that time wisely. Learn about various spiritual teachings, learn about the joys and glories of discovering God in many different cultures and practices. Then take another tour and learn about the dangers and horrors of practicing the fundamentalist brand of various religions, Christian and non-Christian alike. If you do that not only you will be able to understand my writings but you will get closer to Jesus Christ of your own religion.

Regards,

Thomas Orr

[chrispalasz]

przemeknowicki wrote:

"What is Christianity?" So, what is it?. I have presented my definition and I would expect my critics to point out the places I have erred.

Christianity isn't defined by you. It's defined by Jesus Christ, and He makes very clear what it is in the Bible. Your very mention of a "brand" of Christianity shows that you do not have the definition correct. There are no "brands". There are Christians and there are non-Christians. Christians aren't made up of every single person that proclaims to be a Christian. The Body of Christ (Christians) is made up of all people that are temples of the Holy Spirit and have a True and sincere Faith in Jesus Christ as the one true God. Just because a person says they are a Christian doesn't make it so, and your definition of Christianity does not fit Jesus'. I believe Him.

The Church is not a building, it is a people. It is the Body of Christ. Christians are decendants of Abraham by Faith, in the Spirit, not determined biologically.

Read 1 John. It's short, and the author makes it pretty clear who a Christian is. Especially in chapter 2.

Now, regarding your view of the world I have to strongly disagree with your assessment that "there is a Truth in this world that is much greater than [your conclusions]." Really? Are all the children fed? Do people live in peace? Do people treat each other with respect? This is what I propose and if you know about the place where "the Truth greater than my conclusions" reigns please show me.

Sure. The greater Truth than this is in the Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit that resides in all Christians is the greater Truth. And yes, the greater Truth is greater than these questions of yours: "Are all the children fed? Do people live in peace? Do people treat each other with respect?"

The answer to these questions is: On Earth? Not yet. But come Judgement Day... these problems will be solved at the due time. Pretending that you can have the answers to these questions is a fallacy in itself.

Maybe you just used the wrong words and what you meant is not the "Truth in this world" but the "Truth out of this world".

Well, no - but they are both true. God is creator of every world.

I only have the problem with the followers of those spiritual teachings when they misbehave and when they betray the spiritual values of their beliefs by mixing them with politics.

Then I think that you attack the wrong issues. When you say "spiritual" I will assume you mean religious. Otherwise, would it be okay for Atheists to impose their views, since they are not spiritual? It is simply not possible to not mix religious beliefs with politics. Take a look at our society today and examine how Secular Humanism infiltrates and influences our school system.

I am particularly disappointed with the brand of Christianity you and Amedeus represent.

Well then, I am sorry to say that you are dissapointed with Christianity itself. I am sorry to say that you oppose and reject the Holy Spirit, living and active in the Body of Christ which you call my "brand". Of course, I cannot entirely speak on behalf of Amedeus, although I do believe that the Holy Spirit is in her. And while I am not perfect and I do not represent Christ perfectly, I fully and humbly repent for my sins and for those times when I do not accurately reflect Christ.

My first accusation is that you lie and use deception in order to recruit people. When some poor soul comes and asks you how to become a Christian your answer is "just accept Jesus in your heart". Lie. The "road to Jesus" gets harder and harder until the convert gets totally brainwashed into giving up on his/her own judgements, ability to think for him/herself and ability to follow his/her own heart, and unquestionably embraces the twisted policies of the church, whatever the particular teachings. Those includes condemning homosexuality, criminalizing what you branded as vices (prostitution, abortion) and imposing on everybody else your "values" in schools and government institutions if possible. You threaten people with eternal damnation and if this fails you try at least to put them in jail, or worse. Your God is scary and He scares people who are looking for love and happiness away.

We do not lie. It is true that all one must do is accept Jesus into their heart. The problem is that you do not truly know what that means (which is understandable for anyone that has not done so). God does not want Christians to do anything other than accepting Jesus Christ into our hearts. Jesus wants us to come to Him as sinners... as we are. There is no "fixing ourselves up". Being a Christian is proclaiming that we are sinners and that we deserve to go to Hell, but that Jesus Christ has already died for our sins and taken the punishment because of God's good Mercy and Grace.

This is no lie. This is the Truth. Once a person repents and accepts the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, they receive the Holy Spirit. They are made as new creations! They do not change themselves... the changes that take place in a Christian are well beyond human ability. It is the Spirit of God that changes us, and we welcome it with open arms.

While it is true that life as a Christian is no walk in the park - we welcome any persecutions that come our way. It is written that we must suffer as He has suffered. Christians, as the Body of Christ, must live today as Jesus Christ in the flesh lived then.

The believer is not brainwashed. We give up our judgements because they are not good. We are evil sinners... and we gladly give up evil sinful judgements for the good and righteous judgements of the Lord Jesus Chris. It is the choice we make.

God condemns vices such as the ones you list (homosexuality, prostitution, abortion), not humans. As I said before, I am in favor of imposing Christian values IF values MUST be imposed... and they MUST be. It is being proven this very day in our schools. I do not threaten anyone with eternal damnation. The entirity of mankind is threatened with damnation, by God, because we are all sinners. There is a threat, whether or not people are told about it. If Christians stopped saying it... it wouldn't just disappear.

Our God is scary all right... it is scary to those who desire evil and sin, yet don't want to go to Hell. Well, I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Justice will be served, and if you won't accept the price Jesus Christ has already paid, then you will pay it yourself, God have mercy.

Have you seen Christ?

Not in the flesh, no.

Have you experienced Him?

absolutely.

Are you experiencing Him in this very moment?

absolutely.

These are legitimate questions that every spiritual teacher must be prepared to answer.

The poor woman who drowned her children was a Christian and so was the husband who allowed a sick person as his wife was to stay at home alone and deal with what she obviously was not prepared to coping with.

I do not know this woman's heart or state of mind and I do not know if she repented... but based on her works alone, I highly doubt she is/was a Christian. Under your definition? Yes. Under Jesus' definition? Only God knows, but I doubt it.

I would like to reciprocate and offer you a sound advise. Take one year of vacations from the Christianity as you know it and spend that time wisely. Learn about various spiritual teachings, learn about the joys and glories of discovering God in many different cultures and practices. Then take another tour and learn about the dangers and horrors of practicing the fundamentalist brand of various religions, Christian and non-Christian alike. If you do that not only you will be able to understand my writings but you will get closer to Jesus Christ of your own religion.

Thanks, I've had my "vacation". I was dead in my sins for years and years, and then made alive by the blood of Christ. I have only been a Christian since October 9th, 2002, (As stated in the "Questions for GreenLight311 thread: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... =8497#8497) and I have already explored other religions passionately. Prior to coming to knowledge of the Truth, I was a harsh critic and persecutor of Christians. As I have said, I cannot tell you in al Truth what a Christian is. Ultimately, you must go to Jesus Christ to find that answer. I am not greater than He, and I am not greater than you. Asking me these questions will do you little good.

God bless you, and the outcome of your book.