Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

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George00
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Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #1

Post by George00 »

One of the most common arguments I see presented by supporters of evolution is that human and chimp DNA is around 98% similar. Their similarity is said to be strong evidence in support of common ancestry. And to be fair, the similarity between the two "species" seemed to be well supported by the evidence.

Now, to the point of the thread. The following recently conducted research seems to suggest that humans aren't as genetically similar to each other as previously thought.
Genetic Variation: We're More Different Than We Thought

New research shows that at least 10 percent of genes in the human population can vary in the number of copies of DNA sequences they contain--a finding that alters current thinking that the DNA of any two humans is 99.9 percent similar in content and identity.

In the freely available Database of Genomic Variants, each bar represents a chromosome in the human genome. Blue shows the genomic distribution of copy number variations on each chromosome. Green marks the location of all annotated duplications, and red represents inversions and inversion breakpoints. (Image Credit: Junjun Zhang)


This discovery of the extent of genetic variation, by Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) international research scholar Stephen W. Scherer, and colleagues, is expected to change the way researchers think about genetic diseases and human evolution.

Genes usually occur in two copies, one inherited from each parent. Scherer and colleagues found approximately 2,900 genes--more than 10 percent of the genes in the human genome--with variations in the number of copies of specific DNA segments. These differences in copy number can influence gene activity and ultimately an organism's function.

To get a better picture of exactly how important this type of variation is for human evolution and disease, Scherer's team compared DNA from 270 people with Asian, African, or European ancestry that had been compiled in the HapMap collection and previously used to map the single nucleotide changes in the human genome. Scherer's team mapped the number of duplicated or deleted genes, which they call copy number variations (CNVs). They reported their findings in the November 23, 2006, issue of the journal Nature.

Scherer, a geneticist at the Hospital for Sick Children and the University of Toronto, and colleagues searched for CNVs using microarray-based genome scanning techniques capable of finding changes at least 1,000 bases (nucleotides) long. A base, or nucleotide, is the fundamental building block of DNA. They found an average of 70 CNVs averaging 250,000 nucleotides in size in each DNA sample. In all, the group identified 1,447 different CNVs that collectively covered about 12 percent of the human genome and six to 19 percent of any given chromosome--far more widespread than previously thought.

Not only were the changes common, they also were large. "We'd find missing pieces of DNA, some a million or so nucleotides long," Scherer said. "We used to think that if you had big changes like this, then they must be involved in disease. But we are showing that we can all have these changes."

The group found nearly 16 percent of known disease-related genes in the CNVs, including genes involved in rare genetic disorders such as DiGeorge, Angelman, Williams-Beuren, and Prader-Willi syndromes, as well as those linked with schizophrenia, cataracts, spinal muscular atrophy, and atherosclerosis.

In related research published November 23, 2006, in an advance online publication in Nature Genetics, Scherer and colleagues also compared the two human genome maps--one assembled by Celera Genomics, Inc., and one from the public Human Genome Project. They found thousands of differences.

"Other people have [compared the two human genome sequences]," Scherer said, "but they found so many differences that they mostly attributed the results to error. They couldn't believe the alterations they found might be variants between the sources of DNA being analyzed."

A lot of the differences are indeed real, and they raise a red flag, he said.

Personalized genome sequencing--for individualized diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease--is not far off, Scherer pointed out. "The idea [behind comparing the human genome sequences] was to come up with a good understanding of what we're going to get when we do [personalized sequencing]," he explained. "This paper helps us think about how complex it will be."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 115741.htm


So my question is....

If human beings are less genetically similar to each other than previously thought, does this imply that scientists might have been wrong in thinking humans and chimps are 98% similar?



PS- Yes, I realize the article I posted is far from the final word on the matter. I also realize that the point I am making is far from what would be required to falsify evolution or common ancestry. Nonetheless, I thought it would be an interesting subject for discussion here.

Rob
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In Principle We Can Find Answers

Post #41

Post by Rob »

QED wrote:
AB wrote:The entertaining part of this is how some people will put so much weight and emphasis on dicey fossil possibilities, but when it comes to actual people writing about an event(like in the bible) they will do all they can to denounce it.


But AB, any one of us can go out and rent a 4x4 SUV, a tent and some paleontologists tools and dig up the same sort of material being presented by others as evidence. We can in principle therefore run a complete check from top to bottom on what is being presented to us. Checking on those supernatural events described in the bible is not possible even in principle.
Not true! Not true! He said with a smile on his face ...

We have the biblical account of the military campaigns of Joshua and how he miraculously destroyed Jericho. So QED claims this is not able to checked "even in principle" and AB claims all scientists do is "denounce" such claims. Well, their both flat our wrong. And William G. Dever proves their claims just ain't true:
Dever wrote:The Conquest of the Land West of the Jordan: Theories and Facts

Biblical Accounts

After Moses' death his former right-hand man Joshua commences the military campaigns that, according to the biblical account, culminate in the conquest of the heartland of Canaan west of the Jordan. (....) (Dever 2003: 37)

We have already discussed the general character of the "Deuteronomistic history" (that is, Deuteronomy through II Kings) of which Joshua is a critical component. We noted that mainstream scholars date the composition and first editing of this great national epic toward the end of the Israelite Monarchy, probably during the reign of Josiah (640-609 B.C.). (....) (Dever 2003: 38)

The book of Joshua has long been controversial. Even a superficial reading reveals it to be an extraordinarily chauvinistic work, glorifying the military exploits of a ruthless, brilliant general who makes Patton look like a teddy bear. Joshua carries out a systematic campaign against the civilians of Canaan-- men, women, and children--that amounts to genocide. Consider the case of Jericho: all its inhabitants were slaughtered except one--Rahab the prostitute, who had been an informer. And the first unsuccessful attempt to take 'Ai, up in the hills, is explained by the failure of the Israelites to "devote" the entire city to Yahweh--its inhabitants and all the spoils of war--in a holocaust or "burnt offering" (the custom of herem; see Josh. 7). Achan, one of the offenders, is stoned to death along with his children and even his animals. Then, when a second attack is successful, the entire population of 12,000 is butchered, even the fleeing survivors. (Dever 2003: 38)

And so it goes in Joshua's campaigns throughout the entire land. "Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites (Josh. 9:1) are annihilated. Only the Shechemites are spared, possibly because of old tribal alliances dating back to Patriarchal times (Gen. 12:4-9); and the Gibeonites, who however are enslaved as "hewers of wood and carriers of water" (Josh. 9:22-27). By the end of the story, Joshua had defeated the whole land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowlands and the slopes and all their kings; he left no one remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord of Israel commanded. (Josh. 10:40; cf. 11:23)

Is this literary hyperbole? Or did these horrifying events really happen, just as recounted? And what sensitive modern reader can condone genocide--"ethnic cleansing"--on a grand scale? Because that appears to be what is going on here. These are stories that we might well hope have no basis in fact. Why not just excise them from the Bible, as unworthy of its grand themes? How did they every get into the Canon, or collection of Holy Writ, in the first place?


The Book of Joshua: "Historicized Fiction"?

Many scholars would indeed reject the book of Joshua not (I regret to say) on moral grounds, but on the ground that the work is of little historical value. One of today's leading Israeli biblical historians and a relatively moderate critical scholar, Nadav Na'aman of Tel Aviv University, puts it this way.

The comprehensive conquest saga in the Book of Joshua is a fictive literary composition aimed at presenting the occupation of the entire Land of Israel, initiated and guided by the Lord and carried out by the twelve tribes under Joshua. Military events that took place in the course of the later history of Israel were used by the author as models for his narratives. These military episodes were entirely adapted to the new environment, so that in no case can we trace a direct literary relationship between the story/tradition and its literary reflection. (1994: 280-81)

Na'aman concludes that the "conquest stories" of the book of Joshua make only a "minor contribution" to the early history of Israel. Among the few possibly early, authentic narratives are the brief anecdotes concerning the subjugation of sites in the south: Hebron, Debir, Hormah, Bethel, and Dan. Conversely, the authors and editors betray their "ignorance of the history of the northern tribes." Na'aman concludes: "The biblical conquest description ... save for its underlying very thin foundation, has only a tenuous contact with historical reality" (1994: 281).

More conservative biblical scholars, along with evangelical and fundamentalist Christians, as well as Orthodox Jews, pick up the book of Joshua and read it uncritically, quite literally (sometimes even a bit gleefully; the underdog triumphs for once). (Dever 2003: 39-40)

(....) But what archeological evidence is there for each of these viewpoints? We need to examine the material culture data and the historical-cultural context that it provides to see to what degree Joshua looks "real," without drawing any conclusions in advance about its historicity, or (insofar as possible) holding any theological preconceptions about what the book "should" mean. (Dever 2003: 41)

(....) The oldest model for attempting to reconstruct "what really happened" in the Israelite conquest of Canaan overall is drawn, not suprisingly, directly from the book of Joshua. This view has been espoused not only by recent conservative scholars ..., but also by some of the giants of mainstream scholarship of the past.

For instance, the legendary Orientalist William Foxwell Albright, the "Father of Biblical Archeology," defended the "conquest model" from the 1920s until his death in 1971. Some quotations from his magnum opus, From the Stone Age to Christianity (1940), will suffice. (Dever 2003: 41)

Archeological excavation and exploration are throwing increasing light on the character of the earliest Israelite occupation (of Canaan), about 1200 B.C. (1940: 279)

The Israelites ... proceeded without loss of time to destroy and occupy Canaanite towns all over the country. (1940: 278)

And it seems that Albright was not bothered all that much about genocide, for he concludes:

It was fortunate for the future of monotheism that the Israelites of the Conquest were a wild folk, endowed with primitive energy and ruthless will to exist, since the resulting decimation of the Canaanites prevented the complete fusion of the two kindred folk which would almost inevitably have depressed Yahwistic standards to a point where recovery was impossible. Thus the Canaanites, with their orgiastic nature-worship, their cult of fertility in the form of serpent symbols and sensuous nudity, and their gross mythology, were replaced by Israel, with its pastoral simplicity and purity of life, its lofty monotheism, and its severe code of ethics. (1940: 281)

(....) For many, the conquest model had in its favor the fact that it took the biblical account (in Joshua, though not in Judges) seriously, if naively. And the archeological evidence known up until the 1960s from such sites as Bethel, Debir, Lachish, and Hazor seemed to corroborate at least some sort of pan-military campaigns by foreign invaders in Canaan in the late 13th-early 12th centuries.... (Dever 2003: 44)

By the late 1960s, however, the assault or conquest model was assaulted itself. And the threat came from the same quarter that once staunchly upheld the theory--archeology. We have already noted the absence not only of destruction levels at Dibon and Heshbon in Transjordan, but also any possible occupational context for such. This evidence was known already in the late 1960s, but it was often ignored or rationalized away by scholars still anxious to salvage something of the traditional theory. (Dever 2003: 44-45)

Another crushing blow to the conquest model came from the excavations of the great British archeologist Dame Kathleen Kenyon at Jericho between 1955 and 1958. Another British archeologist, John Garstang, had already dug there in the 1920s, sponsored by an evangelical foundation, the Wellcome-Marston Trust. He brought to light a massive destruction of mud brick city walls that he confidently dated to the 15th century B.C. As a result, he announced triumphantly that he had found the very walls that Joshua and his men had brought tumbling down (dating the Exodus, of course, ca. 1446 B.C., as was fashionable at the time). (Dever 2003: 45)

Kenyon, however, equipped with far superior modern methods, and proclaiming herself unencumbered by any "biblical baggage" (so she once told me in Jerusalem), proved that while this destruction indeed dated to ca. 1500 B.C., it was part of the now well-attested Egyptian campaigns in the course of expelling the Asiatic "Hyksos" from Egypt at the beginning of the 18th Dynasty. Moreover, Kenyon showed beyond doubt that in the mid-late 13th century B.C.--the time period now required for any Israelite "conquest"--Jericho lay completely abandoned. There is not so much as a Late Bronze II potsherd of that period on the entire site. This seems a blow to the biblical account indeed. (Nevertheless, I always reassure those who need it that here we have a stupendous "miracle": Joshua destroyed a site that was not even there!) .... Simply put, archeology tells us that the biblical story of the fall of Jericho, miraculous elements aside, cannot have been founded on genuine historical sources. It seems invented out of whole cloth. (Dever 2003: 45-47)

The next site on the Israelite itinerary across the Jordan and up into the central hill country is 'Ai, about ten miles north/northeast of Jerusalem. It was extensively excavated in 1933-35 by a French Jewish archeologist, Mlle. Judith Marquet-Krause. She brought to light a massively fortified Early Bronze Age city-state, with monumental temples and palaces, all destroyed sometime around 2200 B.C. After scant reoccupation in the early 2nd millennium B.C., 'Ai appears to have been entirely deserted from ca. 1500 B.C. until sometime in the in the early 12th century B.C. Thus it would have been nothing more than ruins in the late 13th century B.C., -- that is, at the time of the alleged Israelite conquest. (Dever 2003: 47)

(....) Between 1965 and 1972 Joseph Callaway, an American archeologist and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary professor who had studied method with Kenyon, reopened the investigation. And he confirmed Marquet-Krause's results beyond doubt. To his credit, he acknowledged the excavations of 'Ai as a major blow to the "conquest theory." He put it this way in 1985:

For many years, the primary source for the understanding of the settlement of the first Israelites was the Hebrew Bible, but every reconstruction based upon biblical traditions has floundered on the evidence from archeological remains.... (Now) the primary source has to be archeological remains. (1985: 72)

Moreover, Callaway--a southern gentleman of great moral character--took early retirement from his very conservative seminary rather than risk being the cause of theological embarrassment. (Dever 2003: 47-48)

[And so it goes the same for Joshua's account of Gibeon, which the archeological evidence proves was little more than fiction at the times of the claimed destruction. And other sites have had to be reinterpreted in light of fresh evidence that were once thought to corroborate the biblical accounts of Joshua.]

And Pritchard found 56 broken jar handles inscribed "Gibeon" in Hebrew in a deep water system of the 8th-7th century B.C. The fact that this water system is probably the same one that is mentioned in 2 Samuel 2:13 suggests that the book of Joshua belongs to the 8th-7th century B.C., when the Gibeon known to the biblical writers really did exist. (Dever 2003: 49)

(....) Albright and others were once fond of citing the massive Late Bronze Age destruction of Lachish, after which it was abandoned for as long as two centuries. Albright dated the relevant destruction to ca. 1225 B.C. But large-scale excavations carried out by Israeli archeologists in 1973-87 have proven that the destruction in question took place perhaps as late as 1170 B.C., as shown by an inscribed bronze bearing the cartouche of Ramses III (ca. 1198-1166 B.C.). That is some fifty years too late for our commander-in-chief Joshua--unless he was leading troops into battle well into his eighties. The evidence, published in 1983, has not, however, attracted much attention. (Dever 2003: 49-50)

-- Dever, William G. Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From? Cambridge: Wm. B. Eardmans Publishing Co.; 2003; pp. 37-50.
Dever in principle and in good old hard archeological evidence proved Joshua didn't miraculously destroy Jericho, and he didn't just out of hand dismiss the story in the Bible, but honestly and methodically, and scientifically, set out to answer it.

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Cathar1950
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Post #42

Post by Cathar1950 »

Biker wrote:Another round of Cathar SPECULATION.
No I was repeating scholarly opinions not apologetic rhetoric and Christian propaganda.
Goat wrote:Do you have any substantial evidence to the contrary? How about some extra-biblical evidence from before the Jewish Revolt?
Yeah, what Goat said. AB's quote is not even good speculation. How about anything before the second revolt?

We don't know who wrote them or when or even where except they were not written by anyone that walked with Jesus. You have two people writing and two copying Mark's work. All of it has been reworked and edited, poorly but still there remains contradictions and discrepancies even as they used one gospel to fix another. But we have a number of threads that address these issues already. What make me wonder is that I was referring to the Hebrew writing Genesis and why you dropped your personal Christian propaganda about the NT.

Here is what I wrote about Genesis as it relates to the thread:
Depending on what claims are made of the collection of a few books by a group of people, it may have to be denounced in many matters. Because none of the ancient stories are witnessess of an event that relates to fossils. When claiming they are recording events, they have mixed stories and the dates are usually thousands of years from the tales. Many are reworked tales of gods. Many have known political agenda tangled in he mythology and religion. Why don't read the older clay stories and take them as serious as you want everyone else to take yours when it comes to fossils?
What does that have to do with your lack of historical understanding of the development and creation of the NT? How many Jesus fossils do you know about?
How many clay tablets were written about Jesus in Sumer or Babylon.

AB

Post #43

Post by AB »

Cathar1950 wrote:
AB wrote:Gospels were written around 50-90 AD. Just because they were actually written after the fact doesn't make them wrong.. as some would just love to build in. Eye witnesses were dieing off and it was time to get the story in writing for future generations to know. As I am sure you know, 2 of the authors walked with Jesus. 2 others wrote for apostles. 4 texts of the same event. Of course, naturally, when you have 4 different people writing of an event there are certain aspects that one will include while another will not. Or tell in a more understandable way for their audience(ie. matthew was writing to the jews, while luke's was writing to the gentiles). But those are natural nuances. The account of the gospel is intact without meaningful contradiction.

I disagree that the 4 gospels are "claims". They are accounts. There is much evidence in the structure of the text to support this. The fact of there being 4 different authors written at different times argues against the gospel being "claims".
You think the gospels were written then, many that do not have an agenda put them between 70 and 150 CE. None are mentioned by anyone until the second century and they are no copies before then. Mark has often been reworked to fit later gospels and was the first one used by others such as Luke and Matthew.
You do not have 4 different people writing of event but fictions using Hebrew writings. They are not claims or events they are fictions invented for Christian consumption.
I disagree with a lot of what you claim. Examples include that Mark was reworked. Yeah, the synoptic Gospels do borrow some from another. Which doesn't degrade the integrity of the message at all. And remember, it wasn't like these guys had PCs and email where they could easily collaborate... they didn't know they were writing the bible. And step back and consider this, what is the motivation? In getting the message of the gospel out, these people faced persecution and death. Given this, it doesn't make sense stating that all these texts were to fit an agenda. And then you have the apostle paul, who validated the gospel, while being opposed by beatings, prison, and misery. Sorry, your claim doesn't make sense.

Invent something even though it brings you death?? Come on now.

jwu
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Post #44

Post by jwu »

Biker wrote: We have either clearly man, or clearly ape, nothing in between.Why not various degree's of ape to man, not in the fossil record, but something I can see?
Which ones of these are human, which ones are ape then?
Image



I also think that modern science would welcome creation science,in keeping with the truth of scientific endeavor, if for no other reason than to put it to the test scientifically.
If it'd actually make some more testable predictions, then it would be treated accordingly. But so far pretty much every prediction made by creation science that differs from those of the mainstream view has been falsified.

jwu
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Post #45

Post by jwu »

Apparently i cannot edit the post...but it seems that i misread the quoted section.

Why should there be intermediates alive now? Two separated populations developed independently, the whole populations developed into different directions respectively.

However, what you are asking for appears to be a ring species - these are well known among other species, e.g. salamanders.

George00
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Post #46

Post by George00 »

Jose wrote:If we count "the genes" we find we're nearly indistinguishable. If we count the variations among individuals, and refer to differences in sequence of the same gene, we can say there are more differences. It's rather like saying that UK English and US English are different because they spell color / colour differently. If we count the words, we come out pretty much the same. If we count the spelling differences, we come out different.
Well, it seems geneticist Matthew Hahn of Indiana University thinks "You have to pay attention to more than just the genes that are shared". It seems that I was correct in my assumption in the OP about Chimps and Humans being more genetically different than previously thought....
A lot more genes may separate humans from their chimp relatives than earlier studies let on. Researchers studying changes in the number of copies of genes in the two species found that their mix of genes is only 94 percent identical. The 6 percent difference is considerably larger than the commonly cited figure of 1.5 percent.

The new finding supports the idea that evolution may have given humans new genes with new functions that don't exist in chimps, something researchers had not recognized until recently. The older value of 1.5 percent is a measure of the difference between equivalent genes in humans and chimps, like a difference in the spelling of the same word in two similar languages. Based on that figure, experts proposed that humans and chimps have essentially the same genes, but differed in when and where the genes turn on and off.

The new research takes into account the possibility for multiple copies of genes and that the number of copies can differ between species, even though the gene itself is the same or nearly so. "You have to pay attention to more than just the genes that are shared," says geneticist Matthew Hahn of Indiana University, Bloomington, lead author of the new report. Researchers believe that additional copies of the same gene allow evolution to experiment, so to speak, finding new functions for old genes.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID ... 436FEF8039

Cogitoergosum
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Post #47

Post by Cogitoergosum »

AB wrote:
Invent something even though it brings you death?? Come on now.
David koresh invented the davidian branch in waco texas which brought him and his followers death. R his teaching true and r they the wrok of god?

The inventer of mormonism was killed by an angry mob for his drunken beliefs, is his teachings true? did god really want us to be polygamous? (even though later his followers relinquished polygomy so they could get church status in utah, turns out it was more important to them than the integral word of god)

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