Hell

[Mick]

I go back and forth between eternal conscious hell and conditional immortality (eventual annihilation). I would like to hear what verse(s) convince you of your belief in this matter. I can see both sides but, of course, both can't be true. What do you say?

I am new here and this is my first post so if you don't hear from me again it means I am lost and trying to find my way around.

God bless,
Mick

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 128 by myth-one.com]

You say, “The above statements result from understanding the definition of "immortal": Immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying.�

And you say, “Even God cannot kill someone that He created as immortal.�

Now show me even just one scripture which speaks of being “created immortal.� And show me more than one if you can. You won’t be able to find any such scripture in the Bible.

No physical being was created immortal. Of course you can't find that in the Bible.

We learn of man's immortality from the Church which claims to be knowledgable of the Bible.

What I can show in the Bible is how man can become an immortal being.

The reason you won’t be able to find any such scripture in the Bible is because immortality is nothing more than God’s oath to continue sustaining the receiver’s life.

Adam and Eve merely did not have that oath of permanence from God as yet. So their having to eat regularly of that Tree of Life reflected that God’s sustaining life to them was a privilege they need to be mindful to prove worthy of.


Similarly, there are things we must do if our salvation would be permanently realized:

Proverbs 3: 13-18
13 Happy is the man that has found (godly) wisdom, and the man that gets discernment (by it),
14 for having it as gain is better than having silver as gain and having it as produce than gold itself.
15 It is more precious than corals, and all other delights of yours cannot be made equal to it.
16 Length of days<<(immortality) is in its right hand; in its left hand there are riches and glory.
17 Its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all its roadways are peace.
18 [It is a tree of Life] to those taking hold of it, and those keeping fast hold of it are to be called happy.

You will find these fantastical views such as you express in certain non-biblical works. And you will find those fantastical views in the fantasy world of video games and fictional movies. I don’t feed on those things and so I don’t see illusions of those fantastical ideas in the Bible.

Once again, you do not understand the word "immortal."

Something immortal does not have to be sustained.

Suppose that Abel ate of the tree of life daily.

But no matter how "sustained" Abel might have been from eating of the tree of life-- he was murdered by his brother Abel!

Sadly, man’s fantasies are what most blinds him to being able to see what is really in the Bible. Men’s minds have been tainted by their constant feeding on fantasy so that they have lost their ability to stay focused in reality. And the sad part is that to them such thinking seems so normal they believe they are the realistic ones.

I agree. Most religions teach that man is born with immortality. The immortal "soul."

Fearing death, it's what man wants to hear. So it's an easy task to teach that:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

But believing that first lie seals the Bible from man's understanding -- which repeated states that man is mortal.

[onewithhim]

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

And what does it mean to say "the soul dies"?

That means that the soul no longer lives.

When Satan sinned did he die - or is his eventual end predicted by Ezekiel?

Satan is an immortal spirit -- not a human or "soul." Thus Satan will never die.

Some believe that the immortal soul can lose its immortality through sin, sometimes known as mortal sin, which kills the soul.

Those do not understand the word "immortal." Immortality cannot be "lost."

Of course the soul's resurrection from sin is always possible.

What does that mean?

Resurrection is from death.

Sadly we haven't got the prophet here to shake him and demand he tell us exactly what he thought he meant. All we can do is guess.

No, all we have are his Godly inspired words -- as follows:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Immortal: Not subject to death or decay.

So Ezekiel was saying that souls that sin will die.

If souls that sin die, then souls are not immortal.

Pretty simply!

Satan is NOT an "immortal spirit." The Scripture says that ONLY Jesus was immortal, at the time that Paul wrote to Timothy (I Tim.6:16), therefore Satan could not be immortal. It is not a Bible teaching that spirits are immortal. This is clear by this verse in I Timothy. I don't think you can find a verse that says that spirits are immortal by nature.

The Scriptures also say that the Devil and his cohorts will be DESTROYED. (2 Thess.1:6-9; Matthew 25:41) Immortality is for those who have been Jehovah's friends, and continue to be so to the end of this system of things, and who have been chosen to rule with Christ in heaven.

God Almighty, who is a spirit being, is also a "soul," or, has life as a "soul," so your idea about spirit beings not having soul is erroneous.

God said at Leviticus 26:11: "Moreover, I will make my dwelling among you, and MY SOUL will not reject you." (NASB; see also Lev.26:30; Isaiah 42:1)


Your understanding of "soul" apparently needs adjusting, as well as your ideas about what "spirit" is, wouldn't you say?


In view of what I just showed you from the Scriptures, we can say that Satan is a soul, and although he is a spirit person he is not immortal. Whoever told you that he is immortal and can't die is wrong.

.

[myth-one.com]

Your understanding of "soul" apparently needs adjusting, as well as your ideas about what "spirit" is, wouldn't you say?

In view of what I just showed you from the Scriptures, we can say that Satan is a soul, and although he is a spirit person he is not immortal. Whoever told you that he is immortal and can't die is wrong.

The word soul as defined by The Random House College Dictionary is as follows:

1 - the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in man, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body; the spiritual part of man as distinct from the physical part.
 
2 - the spiritual part of man regarded in its moral aspect, or as capable of surviving death and subject to happiness or misery in a life to come.

But according to the scriptures, there are two type of bodies:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Each of these bodies require a separate and distinct birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

And these two body types do not mix "together":

There are also celestial (heavenly) bodies, and bodies terrestrial (earthly): but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (I Corinthians 15:40)

Regarding man, the natural body comes first and the spiritual body comes second -- if at all:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

So there is no such thing as a "spirit person!"

And there are no beings described in the scriptures which meet the above definitions of "soul!"

There are spirits and persons. Where persons are defined as human beings which are born of water into the natural world; and spirits are defined as beings born of the Spirit into the spiritual world.

==================================================================

And the one remaining difference between mankind and God is body type -- natural versus spiritual:


The Difference Between Man and God

[onewithhim]

Your understanding of "soul" apparently needs adjusting, as well as your ideas about what "spirit" is, wouldn't you say?

In view of what I just showed you from the Scriptures, we can say that Satan is a soul, and although he is a spirit person he is not immortal. Whoever told you that he is immortal and can't die is wrong.

The word soul as defined by The Random House College Dictionary is as follows:

1 - the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in man, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body; the spiritual part of man as distinct from the physical part.
 
2 - the spiritual part of man regarded in its moral aspect, or as capable of surviving death and subject to happiness or misery in a life to come.

But according to the scriptures, there are two type of bodies:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Each of these bodies require a separate and distinct birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

And these two body types do not mix "together":

There are also celestial (heavenly) bodies, and bodies terrestrial (earthly): but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (I Corinthians 15:40)

Regarding man, the natural body comes first and the spiritual body comes second -- if at all:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

So there is no such thing as a "spirit person!"

And there are no beings described in the scriptures which meet the above definitions of "soul!"

There are spirits and persons. Where persons are defined as human beings which are born of water into the natural world; and spirits are defined as beings born of the Spirit into the spiritual world.

==================================================================

And the one remaining difference between mankind and God is body type -- natural versus spiritual:


The Difference Between Man and God

Random House is wrong. They obviously have accepted the ideas of pagan-influenced men who have subverted the Word of God.

"Soul" in Hebrew is "nephesh, and it means the creature or person itself.

"Spirit" is ruach and generally refers to the life force of the living creature or soul.

TWO DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT MEANINGS.

Further:

The Jewish Publication Society of America's editor-in-chief, H.N. Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College stated that "The Bible does not say we HAVE a soul. 'Nefesh' is the person himself, with his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being." (See The New York Times, October 12, 1962.)

.[/u][/b]

[myth-one.com]

Your understanding of "soul" apparently needs adjusting, as well as your ideas about what "spirit" is, wouldn't you say?

In view of what I just showed you from the Scriptures, we can say that Satan is a soul, and although he is a spirit person he is not immortal. Whoever told you that he is immortal and can't die is wrong.

The word soul as defined by The Random House College Dictionary is as follows:

1 - the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in man, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body; the spiritual part of man as distinct from the physical part.
 
2 - the spiritual part of man regarded in its moral aspect, or as capable of surviving death and subject to happiness or misery in a life to come.

But according to the scriptures, there are two type of bodies:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Each of these bodies require a separate and distinct birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

And these two body types do not mix "together":

There are also celestial (heavenly) bodies, and bodies terrestrial (earthly): but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (I Corinthians 15:40)

Regarding man, the natural body comes first and the spiritual body comes second -- if at all:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

So there is no such thing as a "spirit person!"

And there are no beings described in the scriptures which meet the above definitions of "soul!"

There are spirits and persons. Where persons are defined as human beings which are born of water into the natural world; and spirits are defined as beings born of the Spirit into the spiritual world.

==================================================================

And the one remaining difference between mankind and God is body type -- natural versus spiritual:


The Difference Between Man and God

Random House is wrong. They obviously have accepted the ideas of pagan-influenced men who have subverted the Word of God.

"Soul" in Hebrew is "nephesh, and it means the creature or person itself.

"Spirit" is ruach and generally refers to the life force of the living creature or soul.

TWO DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT MEANINGS.

Further:

The Jewish Publication Society of America's editor-in-chief, H.N. Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College stated that "The Bible does not say we HAVE a soul. 'Nefesh' is the person himself, with his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being." (See The New York Times, October 12, 1962.)

Yes, you are absolutely correct that Random house is wrong!

The soul is absolutely not "the spiritual part of man as distinct from the physical part."
 
And the soul is absolutely not "capable of surviving death and subject to happiness or misery in a life to come."

Thanks!!

Such false beliefs cause untold misery, filicides, and failure of the Christian Church.

Strong's #5315: nephesh (pronounced neh'-fesh)

from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

The word "nephesh" should not be translated in any way to imply immortality.

Living breathing creatures will die when they stop breathing.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 35 by OnceConvinced]

Peace to you OC!

I really liked your post.

But just to clarify one point for the sake of accuracy:

Its specifically saying that if you don't believe in him you won't be living forever.

The verse is states that if you DO believe in Him, then you WILL be living forever.



The verse itself does not actually speak to those who do not believe in Him. People make the implication that if those who believe in him shall not perish but receive everlasting life, it must mean that those who do not believe in him shall perish and not receive everlasting life.

But that is not necessarily so.





But to everything else, well said.



Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I think it is so. To not perish one has to believe in God's Son.

[onewithhim]

So you believe that perish means annihilation.

That's all it can possibly mean. Any other meaning is not a standard meaning of the word.

I agree. I can see the argument for annihilation but have trouble with Revelation 14 and Rev 20. I am aware that Revelation is very symbolic but it has meaning and part of that meaning seems to include eternal suffering.

All doctrines have their "difficult verses". It seems to me that the Beast and False Prophet are humans and so Rev. 20:10 has me thinking of eternal torment. Having said that, the majority of verses sway me to annihilation.

What do you say about the Beast and False prophet?

Also, how do I set things up so that I get notification of posts? I nearly missed yours.

God bless,
Mick

Revelation doesn't teach eternal conscious suffering. It teaches that in death Satan and his angels are restrained from doing ANYTHING. That is what "tormented" means. A restraint. Wouldn't the Devil be restrained if he was dead? The Greek word for "torment" is associated with "jailers." Satan will be "jailed" forever, because he will be dead and unable to do anything at all.

The word is basanizo.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says this: "Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as 'torment' (as it doubtless was), and the 'tormentors' need mean nothing more than jailers." (Edited by J.Orr, 1960, Vol.V, p.2999) So it was the imprisonment, or, the relegating of Satan into a spot where he could do nothing further, that constituted the "torment," and to kill him would be the most effective way to put him out of commission forever. There is no sense at all in literally torturing him endlessly. That idea is man-made, by vindictive, sadistic people.

TRUE doctrines have no "difficult verses" as far as I can see. Just the false ones that take really using your imagination to make sense of.

The Beast and the False Prophet are, respectively, the world-wide implementation of man's rule over man. It is beastly. The False Prophet is the United States. For more excellent info on these things, go to www.jw.org and type in "beast" and then "false prophet" (up in the right hand corner), and you will be able to get excellent coverage of those things.

[tam]

[Replying to post 35 by OnceConvinced]

Peace to you OC!

I really liked your post.

But just to clarify one point for the sake of accuracy:

Its specifically saying that if you don't believe in him you won't be living forever.

The verse is states that if you DO believe in Him, then you WILL be living forever.



The verse itself does not actually speak to those who do not believe in Him. People make the implication that if those who believe in him shall not perish but receive everlasting life, it must mean that those who do not believe in him shall perish and not receive everlasting life.

But that is not necessarily so.





But to everything else, well said.



Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I think it is so. To not perish one has to believe in God's Son.

I'm not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing so I will try to be more clear:


To take part in the first resurrection, to be part of the Bride and to reign with Christ as kings and priests in His Kingdom, one must of course believe in Christ.


But there are others who did not believe in Christ before they died (or before He returns)... who have done good to even a least one of His brothers (not knowing that they were doing good to Him)... who will also be invited into the Kingdom and to receive eternal life. Obviously at that point, they will not be non-believers, for they will be seeing Him for themselves.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 137 by tam]

The verse itself does not actually speak to those who do not believe in Him. People make the implication that if those who believe in him shall not perish but receive everlasting life, it must mean that those who do not believe in him shall perish and not receive everlasting life.

But that is not necessarily so.

What say you , then, about these verses?

John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

[tam]

Peace to you Checkpoint!

[Replying to post 138 by Checkpoint]

I believe the 'clue' is here:

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

From those verses (so at the time that they are spoken),

The world was condemned already. That was the condition of the world when Christ entered the world (in the flesh).

That was the 'default' position, so to speak (because of Adam letting death into the world).


God sent His son so that the world would be saved through that Son. So that all who believed in the Son were not condemned, but saved. They have crossed over from death to life.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24


(These are the ones who my Lord shares His reign with (for a thousand years). So that they reign with Him as kings and priests in the Kingdom.)


Everyone else remains subject still to death (so they are still condemned), in the 'default' position.


**

But there is still MERCY. Something that many people do not account for; that many religions make no room for because they do not KNOW God (because they do not know His Son who REVEALS God), and those religions cannot teach what they do not know.


MERCY.... which comes from LOVE... which is the LAW... which God also IS.


So that others are invited into the Kingdom and are given the gift of eternal life as well. Not to reign with Christ as kings and priests. But as subjects - civilians - of that Kingdom.

At my Lord's return, at the separation of the sheep and the goats, the sheep are from the people of the nations who are alive at His return. They are not the Bride (not Christian) - because the Bride has already been caught up to Christ. The sheep and the goats are people of the nations, invited into the Kingdom (or not) on the basis of this:

"Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."

"Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did not do for me."



Neither the sheep NOR the goats know that they have done (or not done) for Him. But their deeds reveal that the law (of love) is indeed written upon their hearts, and... "love covers over a multitude of sins".


(the goats on the other hand, have proven the opposite, and so are cast out)

On top of the separation of the sheep and the goats (which is ongoing during the 'thousand years'), there is also the second resurrection: the resurrection of the dead. This occurs at the end of the thousand year reign, AFTER Satan is released from his prison, after he misleads gog and magog to ride against the breadth of the earth and (try to) attack the people God loves; after fire comes down out of heaven and devours them.


At this second resurrection, those not in Christ who died (from the beginning until that time) are resurrected. Some are resurrected to life (based upon their deeds as written in their individual scrolls); some are resurrected to judgment and the second death.

These ones cannot be Christian either, because the BRIDE was resurrected at the FIRST resurrection, which comes at the START at the 'thousand years'. So there are obviously more people in the Kingdom than just Christians (the Bride), and of course all Israel is saved.

Tthere are also the words of my Lord who said:

"Judge not and you will not be judged."

"Show mercy and mercy will be shown you."

"Forgive and you will be forgiven."


He also said,

"With the measure YOU use, it will measured to YOU."



So there is DEFINITE room for mercy to be shown. Not just room for mercy, but Christ sits in the MERCY SEAT. So of course there IS mercy to be shown. Mercy also comes from LOVE (God), so of course there is mercy, even for those who did not know Christ (or His Father) before He returns. Because while they might not have known Him (or His Father), they may be known BY Him based upon what they DO (word and deed) - unknowingly - for HIM, by doing for even a least one of His brothers.


Remember where it was said,

"Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it." Hebrews 13:2


**


I learned these things from my Lord, and I hope that my sharing what He has taught me helps you also.



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so that you hear as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come!" May anyone who thirsts, "Come, take the free gift of the water of Life!"



Peace to you all, and to your loved ones,
your servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,
tammy