Drumlins, Ribbed Moraines, and Giant Ripples

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Drumlins, Ribbed Moraines, and Giant Ripples

Post #1

Post by otseng »

This thread is an offshoot of the Channeled Scablands thread.

In that thread, I asked "If a catastrophic flood created the Scablands in a short period of time, couldn't other geological features elsewhere be also created in a short amount of time?"

One of the features in the Scablands are the giant ripple marks.

Image
http://www.detectingdesign.com/harlenbretz.html

Similar to giant ripple marks are drumlins and ribbed moraines.

Question for debate:
How did all these giant ripples form?

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Post #2

Post by otseng »

First some definitions:

Drumlin
  • Image
    A drumlin is an elongated whale-shaped hill. Drumlins may be more than 150 ft (45 m) high and more than ½ miles (0.8 km) long, and are often in drumlin fields of similarly shaped, sized and oriented hills."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumlin
    A drumlin is a streamlined, elongate hill composed of glacial drift. Drumlins are often found in swarms; their tapered end pointing in the direction of glacier advance.
    http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/ritter/ ... umlin.html
Ribbed Moraine (Rogen Moraine)

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Post #3

Post by otseng »

Drumlins and ribbed moraines are typically believed to have been created by glaciers.
There are many theories as to the exact mode of origin and plenty of controversy among geologists interested in geomorphology. Some consider them a direct formation of the ice, while a theory proposed since the 1980s by John Shaw and others postulates creation by a catastrophic flooding release of highly pressurized water flowing underneath the glacial ice. Either way, they are thought to be a waveform (similar to ripples of sand at the bottom of a stream).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumlin
There is still some debate about how drumlins are formed, but the most widely accepted idea is that they were formed when the ice became overloaded with sediment. When the competence of the glacier was reduced, material was deposited, in the same way that a river overloaded with sediment deposits the excess material. The glacier may have experienced a reduction in its competence for several reasons, including melting of the ice and changes in velocity. If there is a small obstacle on the ground, this may act as a trigger point and till will build up around it.
http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/p ... /drum.html
Their exact origin is a matter of debate. The main theories are:
- differential erosion by catastrophic release of meltwater
- ductile deformation of unfrozen sediments
- brittle deformation of frozen sediments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbed_moraines

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Post #4

Post by Goat »

otseng wrote:Drumlins and ribbed moraines are typically believed to have been created by glaciers.
There are many theories as to the exact mode of origin and plenty of controversy among geologists interested in geomorphology. Some consider them a direct formation of the ice, while a theory proposed since the 1980s by John Shaw and others postulates creation by a catastrophic flooding release of highly pressurized water flowing underneath the glacial ice. Either way, they are thought to be a waveform (similar to ripples of sand at the bottom of a stream).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumlin
There is still some debate about how drumlins are formed, but the most widely accepted idea is that they were formed when the ice became overloaded with sediment. When the competence of the glacier was reduced, material was deposited, in the same way that a river overloaded with sediment deposits the excess material. The glacier may have experienced a reduction in its competence for several reasons, including melting of the ice and changes in velocity. If there is a small obstacle on the ground, this may act as a trigger point and till will build up around it.
http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/p ... /drum.html
Their exact origin is a matter of debate. The main theories are:
- differential erosion by catastrophic release of meltwater
- ductile deformation of unfrozen sediments
- brittle deformation of frozen sediments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbed_moraines
They look like the ridges that form out of sand near the shore in the ocean..

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Post #5

Post by otseng »

goat wrote:They look like the ridges that form out of sand near the shore in the ocean.
Right, drumlins and ribbed moraines look like they are formed by water, not ice.

Here is a picture of ripples formed by water:

Image


There are only two ways that I know of that ripples can form in soil/sand - by water or wind.

How can ice form ripples of soil/sand?

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Post #6

Post by Goat »

otseng wrote:
goat wrote:They look like the ridges that form out of sand near the shore in the ocean.
Right, drumlins and ribbed moraines look like they are formed by water, not ice.

Here is a picture of ripples formed by water:

Image


There are only two ways that I know of that ripples can form in soil/sand - by water or wind.

How can ice form ripples of soil/sand?
Yes, by retreating glaciers. The sand and soil are left behind in heaps as the glacier melts.

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Post #7

Post by otseng »

goat wrote: Yes, by retreating glaciers. The sand and soil are left behind in heaps as the glacier melts.
How can retreating glaciers form mounds of dirt?
How can it form ripples?
Are there any retreating glaciers now that do this?
Why would it form drumlins that are parallel to the direction of the ice flow and perpendicular to the ice flow for ribbed moraines?
How can melting glaciers form drumlins between 5 and 50 meters high?

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Post #8

Post by Goat »

otseng wrote:
goat wrote: Yes, by retreating glaciers. The sand and soil are left behind in heaps as the glacier melts.
How can retreating glaciers form mounds of dirt?
How can it form ripples?
Are there any retreating glaciers now that do this?
Why would it form drumlins that are parallel to the direction of the ice flow and perpendicular to the ice flow for ribbed moraines?
How can melting glaciers form drumlins between 5 and 50 meters high?

A melting glacier formed Long Island. THat seems to be a bit bigger than 50 meters high.

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Post #9

Post by otseng »

goat wrote:A melting glacier formed Long Island. THat seems to be a bit bigger than 50 meters high.
Long Island is not a drumlin nor a ribbed moraine nor a ripple.

Plus, I don't believe geologists explain Long Island by dirt being deposited by a melting glacier. There might be moraines on Long Island explained this way, but not the entire island.

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Post #10

Post by otseng »

It's very interesting that ribbed moraines are said to "look similar to giant current ripples", yet no one proposes that they are actually made by water. And yet there are no known examples or known mechanisms by which ice can form ribbed moraines.

Also, drumlins are "thought to be a waveform (similar to ripples of sand at the bottom of a stream)". Yet again, most all (conventional) geologists believe it's formed by ice. And again, there are no known examples or known mechanisms for this to happen.

We see formations similar to ribbed moraines and drumlins all the time on a small scale where there are soil/sand and water flow. So, wouldn't it make the most logical sense to explain their formation by water action, rather than ice action?

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