Violence in Childrearing

[McCulloch]

Do not hold back discipline from the child,
Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
You shall strike him with the rod
And rescue his soul from Sheol.

Is there a place for physical violence as part of childrearing?

[4gold]

Well, that proves it is the right thing!

No, but how could that be the wrong thing?

[methylatedghosts]

For once, I think I disagree with you. There are times when a child needs to know who is boss and who isn't. Time outs are appropriate in some situation, as are alternative means. I know I have had to be very creative with my son because he doesn't respond to negative reinforcement. But there are still some times when he needs to be reminded that he can get away with some stuff at school because they have to be politically correct, but at home, you will he held accountable for your actions. Now mostly, withdrawing his bike riding privilidges or his play station, or his jigsaw puzzles work. But there are times that though I know spanking him will lead to a melt down, he needs to be reminded that in this house, everyone has just as much rights as he does. I think there is a certain amount of fear as well as respect a child must have for their parents. If they don't fear disappointing you, then they should fear the punishment for doing something wrong.

But you can see that it can be very confusing for the child in question, no?

And I know that your situation is most likely very different to the rest of ours, and I can imagine that sometimes you will feel especially lost about what to do.

I believe that if discipline is done through love and communication, that fear and negative reinforcement won't be needed. I was never once hit by my parents. Did I lose out? I cannot really say, because I haven't had the other experience to compare it with, but I don't think I did. In fact, I might even go as far to say that I turned out better than some of my peers. (Spiritually, psychologically, etc) But of course, many other things also influence that.

I will return soon. I have more thing I need to say, just can word it right

[Confused]

For once, I think I disagree with you. There are times when a child needs to know who is boss and who isn't. Time outs are appropriate in some situation, as are alternative means. I know I have had to be very creative with my son because he doesn't respond to negative reinforcement. But there are still some times when he needs to be reminded that he can get away with some stuff at school because they have to be politically correct, but at home, you will he held accountable for your actions. Now mostly, withdrawing his bike riding privilidges or his play station, or his jigsaw puzzles work. But there are times that though I know spanking him will lead to a melt down, he needs to be reminded that in this house, everyone has just as much rights as he does. I think there is a certain amount of fear as well as respect a child must have for their parents. If they don't fear disappointing you, then they should fear the punishment for doing something wrong.

But you can see that it can be very confusing for the child in question, no?

And I know that your situation is most likely very different to the rest of ours, and I can imagine that sometimes you will feel especially lost about what to do.

I believe that if discipline is done through love and communication, that fear and negative reinforcement won't be needed. I was never once hit by my parents. Did I lose out? I cannot really say, because I haven't had the other experience to compare it with, but I don't think I did. In fact, I might even go as far to say that I turned out better than some of my peers. (Spiritually, psychologically, etc) But of course, many other things also influence that.

I will return soon. I have more thing I need to say, just can word it right

I am not discounting your position entirely. And I do have a "normal" daughter as well as Alan so discipline can get tricky. I know what psychologists say about the message we send when we spank our children. But the defining point here is that we send a message and use the spanking as reinforcement. It isn't even that the spanking has to hurt. It is getting your message across. There are times when a child will challenge a parent to the point where that is what is needed to get the lesson across. I envy your parents if they raised you and never once had to pop you on the behind. You were either a perfect child or they had the patience of a saint.

[Goat]

Ok guys, I'll be the one to jump straight in and declare that any form of discipline that goes beyond "go to your room" is unnecessary. I firmly believe there is absolutely NO need to hit a child to discipline him/her.

It can be confusing for the child. E.g. A boy hits his sister with a stick, making her cry, because she wasn't doing what he wanted her to (like building a sandcastle). Now, mum comes in and hits him, while saying "Don't hit your sister"......

Seems kinda backwards to me. And I realise this isn't every situation, and sometimes people have no idea what else to do.

But there you go. I am fully against using violence (or physical discipline ) against a child for disciplinary purposes.

Let the debate begin. (I'll try and be on as much as possible......)

For once, I think I disagree with you. There are times when a child needs to know who is boss and who isn't. Time outs are appropriate in some situation, as are alternative means. I know I have had to be very creative with my son because he doesn't respond to negative reinforcement. But there are still some times when he needs to be reminded that he can get away with some stuff at school because they have to be politically correct, but at home, you will he held accountable for your actions. Now mostly, withdrawing his bike riding privilidges or his play station, or his jigsaw puzzles work. But there are times that though I know spanking him will lead to a melt down, he needs to be reminded that in this house, everyone has just as much rights as he does. I think there is a certain amount of fear as well as respect a child must have for their parents. If they don't fear disappointing you, then they should fear the punishment for doing something wrong.

I think it depends on the child. Some (I think most) will respond to the withholding of their favorite items. I noticed that you have don't that use "physical disciple" except as a last resort. I think that using "physcial disciple" often just teaches kids that a response to anger is violence.

[Confused]

I think physical punishment is a last resort. But I think that when it is used as a last resort, the child gets the message stronger than if it was the first resort. I can reinforce a message that some kids are just to stubborn to learn without it. But once again, it is the message we are trying to get across, not the punishment per se. I don't think it reinforces violence if used appropriately.

[otseng]

I believe that if discipline is done through love and communication, that fear and negative reinforcement won't be needed.

I also believe that physical discipline can be done through love and communication.

A whole book can be written on how to responsibly physically discipline a child. And many books have been written on this. But, let me say again that responsible physical discipline is not simply whipping your child black and blue because he spilled his milk.

I was never once hit by my parents. Did I lose out?

I don't think anybody is saying that physical discipline is required for responsible parenting. But that physical discipline can be a part of responsible parenting. And that just because a parent uses physical discipline, it does not mean that is irresponsible parenting.

[McCulloch]

If I were to strike you with a rod, you would be correct to call it violence.

There are several differences. One, you are not an authority figure over me. Two, it is not associated with a consequence of an offense.

Would caning in Singapore be considered a violent act?

If I had authority over you, my striking you with a rod would still be violent.

I disagree here with Jesus. I believe that there are times when violence is justified. For example, in order to prevent further violence, police and other armed forces at times have to commit violent acts.

I've also presented my argument that discipline is a part of responsible parenting. It has been an accepted practice for most of history and across many nations. What is your argument that discipline is not a part of responsible parenting?

Tyranny, slavery, racism, religious intolerance and subjugation of women have been accepted practices for most of history.

[Cathar1950]

I say stone the little things if they won't eat their peas.
When a baby smiles, that is just gas and God's way of tricking you into loving them.

"Cohersion and its fallout" is a great book on the subject. I don't remember who wrote it and I don't know which pile of books it is in.

[otseng]

If I had authority over you, my striking you with a rod would still be violent.

I guess it all depends also on what we mean by "violent".

Let's put it another way. Are the Singaporean authorities doing something wrong when they cane people? I would say no.

However, if you caned me, it would be considered wrong.

I've also presented my argument that discipline is a part of responsible parenting. It has been an accepted practice for most of history and across many nations. What is your argument that discipline is not a part of responsible parenting?

Tyranny, slavery, racism, religious intolerance and subjugation of women have been accepted practices for most of history.

I'm not necessarily saying that just because a lot of people believe in something that it makes it right.

But, can you say that all the parents throughout history who have used a rod would be considered irresponsible for doing so?

[methylatedghosts]

I am not discounting your position entirely. And I do have a "normal" daughter as well as Alan so discipline can get tricky. I know what psychologists say about the message we send when we spank our children. But the defining point here is that we send a message and use the spanking as reinforcement. It isn't even that the spanking has to hurt. It is getting your message across. There are times when a child will challenge a parent to the point where that is what is needed to get the lesson across. I envy your parents if they raised you and never once had to pop you on the behind. You were either a perfect child or they had the patience of a saint.

I think what really needs to be taught is the effect a "bad" action of the child has on others. It is about the child learning that when he hits his brother, it hurts him, and he wouldn't want his brother to hurt him. The earlier that is started, the easier it will be to bring the child up. Verbal and gestural communication is the key to getting across the message. It is the also the tone of voice that affects the strength of the message.

I don't know if I was a perfect child, or if my parents were all that patient. My dad isn't very patient at all. I mean, mum tells me of the time I pushed my brother over when he was learning to walk. I was jealous, and he was stealing all the limelight off me (I'm the first child)! But what mum taught us as kids was to think about what happens when we do certain things. And in that instance of stepping the boundary, it was reinforced by a mention of how my brother felt, and how I wouldn't do it to myself etc.

If it was really bad, then I'd be sent to my room (or picked up and put there) and told to think about it. I was allowed out when I could say why I did it, explain how the other person was affected, say sorry, and promise I wouldn't do it again.