Is it right to judge Christianity based on Christians?

[Confused]

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It seems to me that I have invested a lot of energy in trying to find the truth of Christianity by comparing scripture with current Christians. I didn't realize until yesterday when the last local church in this area told me it was impossible to minister to my son because he was beyond their resources. Now, in my defense, I got pissed but for good reasons. My son is a handful yes, but he is in a special education class for children with emotional and behavioral disorders (autism/aspergers/severe ADHD) and function moderately ok. He has his days when he is defiant or when the stimulation is to high and he breaks down and essentially goes into a vegetative state for an unknown period of time (average 8-12 hours) where theoretically he restarts his system. The education system is mandated by law to provide this service. My anger results from that fact that religion is suppose to be held to higher standards. The standards of God. For a church (and this was a large church) to turn away a 7 year old boy was appalling to me. But it is the 5th church to do so. So last night I was on a path of vengeance. I was judging every Christian I knew and using their hypocrisy to discount the scripture. It got me wondering.

Is it right to judge Christianity based on the sole actions of Christians? I am aware of the discrepancies that exist in the Bible. But I am not judging scripture alone here. I am judging scripture and Christians together. Is it right? Any thoughts?

[4gold]

Moderators, unsure where to put this, so if this is the wrong forum index, please feel free to move as you see fit.

It seems to me that I have invested a lot of energy in trying to find the truth of Christianity by comparing scripture with current Christians. I didn't realize until yesterday when the last local church in this area told me it was impossible to minister to my son because he was beyond their resources. Now, in my defense, I got pissed but for good reasons. My son is a handful yes, but he is in a special education class for children with emotional and behavioral disorders (autism/aspergers/severe ADHD) and function moderately ok. He has his days when he is defiant or when the stimulation is to high and he breaks down and essentially goes into a vegetative state for an unknown period of time (average 8-12 hours) where theoretically he restarts his system. The education system is mandated by law to provide this service. My anger results from that fact that religion is suppose to be held to higher standards. The standards of God. For a church (and this was a large church) to turn away a 7 year old boy was appalling to me. But it is the 5th church to do so. So last night I was on a path of vengeance. I was judging every Christian I knew and using their hypocrisy to discount the scripture. It got me wondering.

Is it right to judge Christianity based on the sole actions of Christians? I am aware of the discrepancies that exist in the Bible. But I am not judging scripture alone here. I am judging scripture and Christians together. Is it right? Any thoughts?

I would say it's okay to judge Christianity based on Christians, but I'd leave the Bible out of it. Let's say there are 2 billion Christians -- then there are probably 2 billion interpretations of the Bible. All you would be doing is comparing your interpretation of the Bible to others, and I guarantee you all 2 billion will always fall short of your expectations, because they are following their own interpretations.

When judging Christians by the actions of the church or themselves, it is only intellectually fair and honest to use the average, and not just cherrypick a few bad cases. Every single religion and philosophy has been perverted by some morons, including atheism (Stalin) and agnosticism (Timothy McVeigh), but no one would say that those who act in such extremes speak for all the others who hold the same beliefs.

In your particular case, if 5 churches say that your son is beyond help, I'd say your reaction is justified. How could anyone be beyond the help of God? And isn't the church supposed to be body of Christ?

[Confused]

4Gold:
I would say it's okay to judge Christianity based on Christians, but I'd leave the Bible out of it. Let's say there are 2 billion Christians -- then there are probably 2 billion interpretations of the Bible. All you would be doing is comparing your interpretation of the Bible to others, and I guarantee you all 2 billion will always fall short of your expectations, because they are following their own interpretations.

But wouldn't it be better to judge Christianity on the Bible instead. That doesn't make much sense does it. I can't judge something on a book i don't understand. I see your point, but I still feel as if I am judging the people and not the practice.

[4gold]

4Gold:
I would say it's okay to judge Christianity based on Christians, but I'd leave the Bible out of it. Let's say there are 2 billion Christians -- then there are probably 2 billion interpretations of the Bible. All you would be doing is comparing your interpretation of the Bible to others, and I guarantee you all 2 billion will always fall short of your expectations, because they are following their own interpretations.

But wouldn't it be better to judge Christianity on the Bible instead. That doesn't make much sense does it. I can't judge something on a book i don't understand. I see your point, but I still feel as if I am judging the people and not the practice.

I just got back from a Freethought lecture with C. Dennis McKinsey. McKinsey has spent 27 years of his life debunking the Bible. He has published two encyclopedias that document thousands of errors, contradictions, and other falsehoods. He has a cable television show and a radio show dedicated to debunking the Bible. He knows the entire Bible inside and out.

I won't go into detail over McKinsey's arguments, but I left the meeting thinking that he had constructed one of the most elaborate strawmen arguments I have ever witnessed. If Christians accepted his interpretation of the Bible, I doubt they'd believe it either! But they don't, so his arguments on why Christians shouldn't accept his interpretations of the Bible seemed kind of moot to me.

This is why basing Christianity on the Bible is very dangerous. Please note: I'd dare say that most Christians base their Christianity on the Bible, so it is not out-of-bounds to call Christians to follow the Bible. The problem lies when Christians do not follow your interpretation of the Bible. As reasonable as you think your interpretations may be, if Christians don't accept those interpretations, then your argument is kind of moot. And besides, you and I both know that a person can find whatever they want to find in the Bible to justify a particular action or to condemn a particular action.

Personally, I have never encountered a Christian who follows their own interpretation of the Bible. They justify it by saying they are a sinner, forgiven by God. I suppose this is reasonable, but it seems like a copout to me. But then again, I have never met an agnostic or atheist who follows their own moral code either, so I can't be too quick to judge.

In every philosophy and religion, there is a standard of what ought to be and a standard of what really is and the two never match. To Christians, the standard of what ought to be is the Bible. The standard of realism is what you witnessed with your son. I'd say the best way to judge a group is based on their actions, because if the two of you cannot agree on "what ought to be", then all you can really do is judge their actions.

[McCulloch]

asing Christianity on the Bible is very dangerous.

Forgive me for pulling this one thought out of context.
Please expand. If Christianity is not based on the Bible, what is it based on?

[4gold]

asing Christianity on the Bible is very dangerous.

Forgive me for pulling this one thought out of context.
Please expand. If Christianity is not based on the Bible, what is it based on?

It is sort of out of context. Later, I even remarked that Christians themselves based Christianity on the Bible.

Here's what I meant: If you were to read the Bible and Christians do not live up to that concept of the Bible, it is possible that it is your concept of the Bible that is off and not the Christians. It's also possible that your concept is correct and the Christians are off.

Rather than speaking in generalities, let me give specific examples, starting with an absurd example just to make a point and then moving to more logical examples:

In Revelations, Jesus says, "I am the door." If you took this literally, you would believe that Christians should believe that Jesus is a literal door. And then you would get frustrated because Christians obviously aren't believing what the Bible plainly says.

In Ecclesiastes, the Bible says "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises." Christians who are members of the International Flat Earth Society (yes, there really is such a society) use this verse to justify that the Bible says the earth is flat, and it is man who is flawed by thinking that the earth is round. They get frustrated at Christians who believe in a round earth, because they are clearly rejecting what the Bible says.

Jesus tells Christians, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Yet Paul tells Christians, "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?" I have seen several atheists condemn Christians for being so judgemental. Are Christians following the Bible when they judge another Christian?

C. Dennis McKinsey began his lecture with John 14:6 -- "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through me." McKinsey went on the argue that this passage clearly says you have to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. I thought to myself, "It's possible that's what that verse is saying, but isn't it also possible that verse is saying that Jesus gets to decide who goes into heaven?"

These above examples are reasons why say basing your judgement of Christianity on the Bible is "dangerous". Is your concept right and the Christians wrong or vice versa? I dunno, but tread carefully when making judgements based on what the Bible says. While Christianity is based on the Bible, almost no two people read the Bible the same way.

This is why I think the most intellectually honest and fair way to judge Christians, or any other religion, philosophy, or person, is based on their actions.

[McCulloch]

This is why I think the most intellectually honest and fair way to judge Christians, or any other religion, philosophy, or person, is based on their actions.

You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.

But have you not met Christian apologists who will loudly assert that you should not reject Christianity because of hypocrites in the church. Or even hypocrites in church leadership. You should accept Christianity because of God's love or something like that. Are those Christian apologists teaching contrary to Jesus' message?

[otseng]

Moderators, unsure where to put this, so if this is the wrong forum index, please feel free to move as you see fit.

I think it's a good place as any.

Is it right to judge Christianity based on the sole actions of Christians? I am aware of the discrepancies that exist in the Bible. But I am not judging scripture alone here. I am judging scripture and Christians together. Is it right? Any thoughts?

First off, though you are angry, I appreciate your honesty in sharing about your situation.

I think you can judge Christianity based on actions of Christians. And Christians should know that and expect that. But, I don't think it should solely be based on that. Christianity should primarily be judged by its claims and teachings. And secondly by its proponents.

I think Christians should be held to a higher standard. Primarily because the Bible holds them to a higher standard.

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

But, the reality is that nobody is perfect. Or even close to perfect. But, I think Christians should still strive for it.

[4gold]

This is why I think the most intellectually honest and fair way to judge Christians, or any other religion, philosophy, or person, is based on their actions.

You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.

But have you not met Christian apologists who will loudly assert that you should not reject Christianity because of hypocrites in the church. Or even hypocrites in church leadership. You should accept Christianity because of God's love or something like that. Are those Christian apologists teaching contrary to Jesus' message?

Yeah, I've met those apologists. I sort of am one of those apologists. When I converted from atheism to Christianity, it certainly wasn't because of Christians.

I guess what I am saying is that it is fair to use the Bible as the wand for criticizing Christians, but be very careful in doing so. I'm sure you've had enough experiences beating your head against the wall dealing with interpretations of the Bible. This is why I reject the Bible as a source of truth, rather than as a guide for truth. I use it as a North Star, if you will. My destination is not the understanding of what was meant by the Bible in each text, but rather to use it as the boundaries for understanding truth and moral truth.

Since the Bible is such a subjective use of an argument, I feel the more intellectually honest way is to judge Christianity by the average of its collective actions.

[EscapePlan]

Since the Bible is such a subjective use of an argument, I feel the more intellectually honest way is to judge Christianity by the average of its collective actions.

Well then, it's just a matter of interviewing all the Christians in the world and determining what an 'Average Christian' is.

If you are searching for a Christian to look up to, you're probably not going to find one. Only God is perfect, the rest of us fundamentally flawed with free will.