Islam & science

[omartarik2006]

Related to this Topic , I would like to discuss the relation between Islam and science .The confrontation between the Quran and scientific data has always provided me with food for thought.I always held the belief that corroboration between the scriptures and science was a necessary element to the authenticity of the sacred text .Since We cannot, after all, accept a "divine" Revelation making statements which are totally inaccurate.
I would like to start by these verses :"Alif, Lam, Mim. The Romans have been defeated in the lowest land ,but after their defeat they will be victorious within few years. The affair is Allah's from beginning to end. "(Qur'an, 30:1-4).
Historically ,we know that the Quran was revealed during approximately 23 years ( 610 -632 AD),the Roman -Persian wars , wich is the longest war ever between two entities in History occurred in Syria , parts of Mesopotamia and specifically around Jerusalem (= the Dead Sea Basin.)
Only recently , using topographic maps, science has affirmed this scientific truth: the Lowest point on land is the Dead Sea with −417 m, it was already revealed to an illiterate Prophet 1400 years ago.
Any comments or rectifications are welcomed.

[juliod]

( 610 -632 AD)

In other words, after the collapse of the Roman Empire.

the Lowest point on land is the Dead Sea with ?417 m,

Um, no, that would be the lowest point on water. I would have thought it was pretty clear that something called the Dead Sea would not be a land feature (The Aral Sea not withstanding).

DanZ

[omartarik2006]

Thanks Juliod for your reply.
1-I'm not sure if I can utterly agree with your first statement , as you know the Roman empire was divided between the Western roman empire wich ended in 476 ( I believe this is the one you 're talking about );and the Eastern one , widely known as the Byzantine Empire ; the Greek-speaking Roman Empire of the Middle Ages that remained till the 15 th century .
The eastern Roman empire is the one that fought The Persian Empire (the Sassanid) in the Dead Sea Basin and recaptured Jerusalem ,Syria and parts of Mesopotamia.I'll summon you to check out the Roman-Persian war , wich ended according to History in 627.
2-Regarding the lowest point on land , to be more precise ,it's actually the shoreline of the Dead Sea, check out this link:http://ask.yahoo.com/20010920.html
Ps:Sorry; I forgot to type the preposition "at" ,and I can't correct that in my first post.

[juliod]

I was just pulling your leg, a little.

If you think that that verse in the Quran means the dead sea is the lowest point on land, wouldn't it have been simpler for the prophet to have simply written that outright, and not bury it in some obscure reference to the Romans (Greeks)?

I mean, he probably meant "The lowest land that I'm aware of" or "The lowest land in the area" or "The land of least favorable climate".

BTW, none of the first three translations I found give the reading of "lowest" but rather "near", "nearer" or "close by".


030.002
YUSUFALI: The Roman Empire has been defeated-
PICKTHAL: The Romans have been defeated
SHAKIR: The Romans are vanquished,

030.003
YUSUFALI: In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
PICKTHAL: In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious
SHAKIR: In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,

030.004
YUSUFALI: Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-
PICKTHAL: Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice
SHAKIR: Within a few years. Allah's is the command before and after; and on that day the believers shall rejoice,

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/030.qmt.html

DanZ

[omartarik2006]

Hi again Juliod.
The interpretations of The Quran you'r quoting from are not contemporary .
From :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ar-Rum
1- The Romans have been defeated.2- In the nearest/lowest land, and they, after their defeat, will defeat .
That will lead us to another issue :'" the translation of the scriptures'" , and how it's an extremely difficult task to achieve, because in my point of view :each interpretator will ,in a way or another , refer to his own ideas to replicate some meaning or verses in another language;and this can change the original meaning of the text , that's why the original Arabic wording of the Holy Quran is the only authentic source of meaning. If one relies on the translation alone, one is likely to misunderstand it.
The arabic word translated as "nearest/lowest land" is "adna" and it means both nearer and lowest .The old commentators of the Qur'an, were of the opinion that "adna" meant the nearest land to the Arabian Peninsula , , but now they agree to translate it as "lowest " because modern measuring methods and equipment proved this fact
Moreover ,the term "Byzantine" wasn't introduced until the 15th century , and it was conventionally choosed to describe the Eastern Roman Empire only in the 19th.Regarding the concept of what's simple and what's not ? I believe it differs from time to time and it depends on our knowledge and scientific advancement, this scientific truth was there in the Quran 1400 years ago ,we have only discovered it for ourselves ,in recent times,therefore made it simple.

[Cathar1950]

Hi again Juliod.
The interpretations of The Quran you'r quoting from are not contemporary .
From :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ar-Rum
1- The Romans have been defeated.2- In the nearest/lowest land, and they, after their defeat, will defeat .
That will lead us to another issue :'" the translation of the scriptures'" , and how it's an extremely difficult task to achieve, because in my point of view :each interpretator will ,in a way or another , refer to his own ideas to replicate some meaning or verses in another language;and this can change the original meaning of the text , that's why the original Arabic wording of the Holy Quran is the only authentic source of meaning. If one relies on the translation alone, one is likely to misunderstand it.
The arabic word translated as "nearest/lowest land" is "adna" and it means both nearer and lowest .The old commentators of the Qur'an, were of the opinion that "adna" meant the nearest land to the Arabian Peninsula , , but now they agree to translate it as "lowest " because modern measuring methods and equipment proved this fact
Moreover ,the term "Byzantine" wasn't introduced until the 15th century , and it was conventionally choosed to describe the Eastern Roman Empire only in the 19th.Regarding the concept of what's simple and what's not ? I believe it differs from time to time and it depends on our knowledge and scientific advancement, this scientific truth was there in the Quran 1400 years ago ,we have only discovered it for ourselves ,in recent times,therefore made it simple.

It seems like your reasoning is like a number of your Christian brothers where you have chosen between to meanings as evidence for divine knowledge because science( “modern measuring methods and equipment proved this fact”) while it seems more likely to be an useless fact where “nearest” would make sense. There is no reason for them to say lowest yet you choose this meaning because of the coincidence that it is the lowest place.
Of course what do they mean by lowest is a good question. How is it relevant except you are projecting something into the text that is only there because you imagine it to be and think it proves something?

[omartarik2006]

Hi cathar 1950.
Sorry, but I didn't choose between two meanings to project this scientific truth , the words as we can find them in the Original arabic Quran are في أدنى الأرض. Now , if there's any Professor in your area ,unless you are well educated in arabic , go ask him what "adna lardi" means .Here are more proofs that the word ادنى in this context means" lowest " .
1-From N.Q 32:21 ولنذيقنهم من العذاب الادنى دون العذاب الاكبر لعلهم يرجعون
According to Picktall , it's translated : And verily We make them taste the lower punishment before the greater, that haply they may return.
Moreover , you can check out this link:http://translation2.paralink.com/lowres.asp,choose the option : translate from arabic to english , copy في أدنى الأرض paste it in the box ,and click the translation Button ,amazingly I got this :In the lowest land.The issue here isn't related with a process of thinking , more than it's connected with a misinterpretation of words due to the lack of data .Fortunately , the original Arabic wording of the Holy Quran still exists , and it's the only authentic source of meaning as I said .

[omartarik2006]

Another revealing verse in the Quran is :
And We sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind.... (Surat al-Hadid: 25).
When we take in consideration the words in bold , we can grasp that this verse implies a very significant scientific miracle,This is because only modern astronomical findings have disclosed that the metal of iron did not form on the earth but has come down from the giant stars in outer space via meteors .
Feel free to comment.

[omartarik2006]

Believe it or not , the age of the universe is stated in the Quran.
According to the different ways the age of the Universe can be estimated, researchers says the universe is between 11.2 billion and 20 billion years old.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 30103.html
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/age.html
1-God says in the Quran : And surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number. Quran 22-47 , it means that a day by God is 1000 years in our reckoning .
2-In surah Al-Maarij (The Ascending Stairways), God says :[70.4] To Him ascend the Angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
We can note that God doesn't say "fifty thousand years of what you number", because the day in question in this verse is a time measure of a God's day ( which each day is 1000 years in our reckoning)
Let's convert these God's Years in our norms:
50,000 x 365.2422 (days in human gregorian year)= 18,262,110 God's Days
One Day by God is corresponding 1000 years of our reckoning:
18,262,110 x 1,000 = 18,262,110,000 =18, 2 Billions years.

[Goat]

Believe it or not , the age of the universe is stated in the Quran.
According to the different ways the age of the Universe can be estimated, researchers says the universe is between 11.2 billion and 20 billion years old.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 30103.html
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/age.html
1-God says in the Quran : And surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number. Quran 22-47 , it means that a day by God is 1000 years in our reckoning .
2-In surah Al-Maarij (The Ascending Stairways), God says :[70.4] To Him ascend the Angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
We can note that God doesn't say "fifty thousand years of what you number", because the day in question in this verse is a time measure of a God's day ( which each day is 1000 years in our reckoning)
Let's convert these God's Years in our norms:
50,000 x 365.2422 (days in human gregorian year)= 18,262,110 God's Days
One Day by God is corresponding 1000 years of our reckoning:
18,262,110 x 1,000 = 18,262,110,000 =18, 2 Billions years.

Obsolte information. The universe is about 13.7 billion years old. They narrowed down the age drastically the last few years. That puts your calculation off by
5 billion years for the age of the universe... and it means you are just playing with numbers, hoping to get the proper answer.