Is God imperfect or simply indifferent?

[Justin108]

Assuming for argument sake that Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 are both true in suggesting that unbelievers are condemned

If God fails to convince each and every one of us that he exists, this either implies that
a) God was unable to convince us he exists (implying imperfection)
b) God did not care to try to convince all of us (implying apathy)

Is God imperfect? Or simply apathetic in our salvation?

[JLB32168]

Excluded middle................The Biblical God is the product of human imagination and that's why it doesn't seem to fulfill yet another imaginative standard set up by humans of what they think a God should be.

That isn’t the question before us. The question asked if the deity was indifferent and a response was given that explains why jumping to indifference is premature.

[JLB32168]

For what purpose would they possibly want to convince people that they were being abducted by aliens?

I don’t know, but it doesn’t change anything I said. My speculations would explain the “why.�

I'm not talking about the OT, I'm asking in what way the belief in Christianity is more justified than the belief in Islam?

I told you why I felt it was more justified since you asked me why I felt what I felt. Start another thread if you have other questions.

Your God commanded the exact same thing at one point, so how can you call Islam immoral when God commanded the exact same thing?

That’s easy. God commanded these things for very specific reasons, the reasons of which no longer exist since Christ has completed the Law. Islam backpedals; therefore, I do not accept that Islam is God’s last revelation – which is what Islam teaches.

I’ve told you my reasons.

Yes because God is omnipotent. He would certainly be able to bring Christ to the world without killing homosexuals, unbelievers and those who work on the Sabbath

Okay.
Why should I regard this as important?

[ttruscott]

But this is all irrelevant. The point is I cried out and got no response. Thus your claim that God will always help us if we ask for help or want help it is simply not true. The honourable thing to do is to withdraw this clearly false claim. Are you going to do the honorable thing and withdraw what is clearly a false claim?

Going on about how some Christians remained strong in faith is irrelevant to the claim you made. I was fully committed for over 30 years of my life. Until you have done the same you are in no position to judge me.

Please consider the way the Scripture deals with this problem:

1. Matt 13:22 The seed falling among the thorns [7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants.] refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. That Jesus spoke in parables to hide the truth from the world so He could teach His people secretly is well known Matt 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
With this in mind it is no great leap to understand that along with worries of life and the deceitfulness of wealth, another thorn that chokes faith is the gaining of much earthly/secular/scientific wisdom that slowly holds stronger sway against faith.

Just as some people come to faith slowly over many years and in later life finally renounce their rebellion and announce their conversion, so too can the descent from belief into rejection be a slow process that can take tens of years to solidify into overt denouncement. The amount of time spent in either place of belief before denouncing it and claiming a new belief is irrelevant.


2.

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

If "Lord, Lord" and working miracles in His name does not fulfill being in His spirit and one of His people of the kingdom, what does? Is it not obvious that Jesus knew something about these people that they did not know themselves? That they thought they were strong in His spirit but were merely aping what He did without true faith?

They came boasting to Him so they obviously were in deep denial of their own true nature, a natural consequence of being sinful going all the way back to Adam and Eve being naked but not ashamed when being unclothed is no sin.

[ttruscott]

The Biblical God is the product of human imagination...

This is a conclusion set up as a premise...an unproven conclusion at that.

Please prove the Biblical God is the product of human imagination or rescind the statement.

[Justin108]

Your God commanded the exact same thing at one point, so how can you call Islam immoral when God commanded the exact same thing?

That’s easy. God commanded these things for very specific reasons

1. How do you know Allah doesn't have his reasons?
2. Assuming Islam were correct, you would not be able to call Allah's actions immoral as he defines morality (as you've argued about God on numerous occasions)

Islam backpedals; therefore, I do not accept that Islam is God’s last revelation – which is what Islam teaches.

According to Islam's interpretation, Jesus never undid or "completed" the law, so essentially you are dogmatically rejecting their interpretation in favor of your own.

Yes because God is omnipotent. He would certainly be able to bring Christ to the world without killing homosexuals, unbelievers and those who work on the Sabbath

Okay.
Why should I regard this as important?

Your initial claim was these things were done "to prepare the way for Christ’s advent". This is your excuse for why God did these things. Since God did not need to do these things to achieve his goal, you cannot call Christ's advent the "reason" for killing homosexuals, unbelievers, etc.

If you can achieve X without needing to do Y, then you cannot say you did Y in order to achieve X. You will need further justifications for why you chose to do Y as opposed to any other means.

The gist of your rejection of Islam is essentially because it disagrees with Christianity, which is circular logic.

[JLB32168]

1. How do you know Allah doesn't have his reasons?

2. Assuming Islam were correct, you would not be able to call Allah's actions immoral as he defines morality (as you've argued about God on numerous occasions)

Well, given Allah’s commands via Christ – that no one should add to this Gospel, much less do a complete reversal of it by taking up stoning sinners – I conclude that Mohammed got his wires crossed and that he was a false prophet.

According to Islam's interpretation, Jesus never undid or "completed" the law, so essentially you are dogmatically rejecting their interpretation in favor of your own.

Yeah – I reject the idea that Allah (I have no problem calling him Allah just as Arab Christians don’t) commanded us to pray for our enemies, but reversed courses and told us to stone them.

Since God did not need to do these things to achieve his goal, you cannot call Christ's advent the "reason" for killing homosexuals, unbelievers, etc.

If doing these things was the best way to do things then God indeed need to do them since God’s Omnipotence doesn’t allow for doing things less than the best way.

“Then God isn’t omnipotent since He can’t do everything.� I’m cool with a deity that is limited to doing the best and who cannot do otherwise.

[Justin108]

1. How do you know Allah doesn't have his reasons?

2. Assuming Islam were correct, you would not be able to call Allah's actions immoral as he defines morality (as you've argued about God on numerous occasions)

Well, given Allah’s commands via Christ – that no one should add to this Gospel

1. Please quote where in the Quran it says that Jesus made this claim
2. How do you explain Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Revelations, and virtually any book in the Bible after the Gospels?

much less do a complete reversal of it by taking up stoning sinners

According to Islam, these laws never went away. You are again assuming the Christian interpretation is the correct one by default

I conclude that Mohammed got his wires crossed and that he was a false prophet.

But Paul wasn't? How can you tell?

Yeah – I reject the idea that Allah (I have no problem calling him Allah just as Arab Christians don’t) commanded us to pray for our enemies, but reversed courses and told us to stone them.

But you accept the idea that God stoned homosexuals only to reverse the law later?

If doing these things was the best way to do things then God indeed need to do them since God’s Omnipotence doesn’t allow for doing things less than the best way.

Explain to me why exactly these things were needed in order to prepare for Christs advent?

Claiming that homosexuals needed to be killed in order to prepare for Christ's advent makes about as much sense as claiming the Holocaust was needed to prepare for Germany's rise to glory.

“Then God isn’t omnipotent since He can’t do everything.� I’m cool with a deity that is limited to doing the best and who cannot do otherwise.

So far, God in your mind is no longer fair and no longer omnipotent. Things are starting to look bleak

[JLB32168]

Please quote where in the Quran it says that Jesus made this claim.

Allah is the Arabic for “God.� Orthodox Christian Arabs address the deity as “Allah.� Christ, who is Allah, has said, “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book� implies additions are false. The Koran adds; therefore, it is false according to Christian theology.

According to Islam, these laws never went away. You are again assuming the Christian interpretation is the correct one by default.

You asked me why I don’t accept the Koran. I told you why. Of course I go to my interpretation first – I’m a Christian.

But Paul wasn't? How can you tell?

I can’t tell for sure. I guess this should be important to me, IYO. I’m sorry to disappoint.

But you accept the idea that God stoned homosexuals only to reverse the law later?

God didn’t stone. He commanded people to be stoned and God didn’t command the people to stone homosexuals – only those who engaged in sodomy. Yes, I accept that God did it this way. That this bothers you is your affair.

Explain to me why exactly these things were needed in order to prepare for Christ’s advent?

I’ve heard various and sundry explanations. The most reasonable one to me is that they teach the seriousness of sin and how it results in destruction. I’m cool with that explanation.

So far, God in your mind is no longer fair and no longer omnipotent. Things are starting to look bleak

Why is being unfair “bleak?� That implies that being unfair is wrong. It isn't.

[Justin108]

Christ, who is Allah

According to Islam, Christ is not Allah. Once again, you assume Christian doctrine to be accurate by default.

...has said, “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book� implies additions are false.

He said this according to Christian doctrine. Since we cannot know for a fact what Jesus said or did not say, you cannot claim for a fact that Jesus said this. If Islam does not believe Jesus said this, who are you to call them wrong?

Even if Jesus said this, you know as well as anyone how open to interpretation religious texts are. What if you simply misunderstood the text? Given the existence of several canon biblical text post-Gospel, it would seem you misunderstand the text. Didn't John "add unto these things" when he wrote Revelation?

The Koran adds; therefore, it is false according to Christian theology.

"Islam disagrees with my religion and is therefore automatically wrong"

You asked me why I don’t accept the Koran. I told you why. Of course I go to my interpretation first – I’m a Christian.

So no matter what, you will assume Christianity is correct in all instances and whoever disagrees with Christianity is automatically wrong? So you live your life by one big confirmation bias?

I would love watching you debate a Muslim. I take it it would look a lot like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_tc2H6SbJY

But you accept the idea that God stoned homosexuals only to reverse the law later?

God didn’t stone. He commanded people to be stoned

Yes because this distinction makes it so much better...

and God didn’t command the people to stone homosexuals – only those who engaged in sodomy. Yes, I accept that God did it this way. That this bothers you is your affair.

If this doesn't bother you then we can move on to God commanding death to unbelievers. It bothers you that Allah commands death to infidels, but find it perfectly acceptable that God commanded the death of unbelievers...?

I’ve heard various and sundry explanations. The most reasonable one to me is that they teach the seriousness of sin and how it results in destruction.

It "results in destruction" because God tells people to kill those who sin!! This makes about as much sense as executing those who drive without a seat-belt to show them how dangerous it is to drive without a seat-belt

I’m cool with that explanation.

Then what's wrong with Allah killing sinners to show them how serious sin is?

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to post 88 by JLB32168]

"You asked me why I don’t accept the Koran. I told you why. Of course I go to my interpretation first – I’m a Christian."

Quran 9:5
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Verse 9:5 teaches Muslims to commit mass-murder. The kafirs must either convert to Islam, who would keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate (zakat), or be murdered.

Christians love to rail against the many verses in the Quran that command Muslims to kill non-Muslims, but they also ignore the verses in the Bible commanding the same thing and things that are every bit as barbaric.

Deuteronomy 17
“2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.�

If one looks objectively and does not suffers from massive bias both the Quran and the Bible teaches the murder of infidels and none is superior on this matter then the other.