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You said:theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 336 by benchwarmer]
Woe to the land of whirring insect wings?
Send a ram to the ruler of the land?
I don't think it's anywhere near reasonable to pull a prophecy, often written in poetic style, and in most cases symbolism, much less a scripture that's not prophecy.
Perhaps you could try starting from where the prophecy begins - Chapter 15. That may help.
Two examples were provided. You apparently didn't like them. You can't say we didn't back up the assertion. Do you have anything that suggests a non-flat earth in the Bible?No where in the Bible does it teach a flat earth.
If you insist, please provide evidence.
To the bold.hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 316 by Talishi]
In a way, I agree. The Bible, as I said, is not a book of metaphysics, tells us very little about how God is built, so to speak. We get but snap shots which often conflict. It's up to us to put them together into a meaningful, unified whole.
Consequently, the early church borrowed heavily on Hellenic metaphysics and standards of perfection. Many believers and also nonbelievers naively assume that the traditional Christian definition or picture of God comes right out of Scripture. It most certainly did not. It came most directly out of Hellenic metaphysics.
Now, the traditional model of God is called classical theism. Accordingly, God is void of body, parts, passions, compassion, wholly immutable, wholly independent of the world, all-determining. Since the 40's, however, many theologians have challenged this model on biblical and empirical grounds. Neo-classical theists, such as myself, argue the model is unbiblical, as God, in Scripture, is attributed deep feeling, change, and knows the future only as possibilities, not certainties, etc. We have proposed a dipolar model of God, whereby contingency and change can be attributed to God. After all, if God cannot change, if nothing can make any difference in God, then saint or sinner, it's all the same to god, who remains blissfully indifferent to the world. But I know I and many others can put no faith in such an indifferent Deity. We accept that God is all-knowing. However, we stipulate carefully that this means God knows the future for what it is: the realm of as yet unactualized potentials, not as a matter of definite fact. I can go into more detail if you wish. I'm just trying to point out here that Scripture is not the basis for the classical Christian picture of God as he or she is in his or her own nature. I say "her," to draw attention to the passive, empathic, receptive dimensions of God, a theme lost to the classical model, which, on the basis of purely Hellenic standards of perfection, enshrined the immune and the immutable.
Is "the earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment" specific enough for you?theStudent wrote: Do you have any evidence that it is referring to something specific?
My argument is you said "No where" and I showed you one place and Talishi showed you another. You didn't say "Only in the places I find to not be prophesy, allegory, myth, story, or otherwise not literal, please find where in the Bible..."theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 341 by benchwarmer]
I really am not following your argument.
The verse you referred to is part of a prophecy, that carries a meaning that can be anyone's guess.
Do you have any evidence that it is referring to something specific?
Then by all means produce that evidence.
You can only have four corners on a square.Revelation 7:1New International Version (NIV)
144,000 Sealed
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.
How is my interpretation 'wrong'. That implies yours is 'right'. I never said you had to accept it, as a matter of fact I said 'interpret as you see fit'. You're doing a lot of dancing around rather than simply admitting that while the Bible does not come right out and say 'The earth is flat, not round', it does imply flatness in a number of places.theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 345 by benchwarmer]
So are you saying, you have the right to interpret it as you wish, and I am to accept your interpretation, and answer according to your interpretation, even though it is wrong?
What would that accomplish, and more to the point, is it reasonable?
Circles are 2 dimensional not spherical. Other translations use the word 'disk', also not spherical.Isaiah 40:22New International Version (NIV)
22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
I hear that same response from my teen-children about me, but of course on a much smaller scale. I just say to myself; "oh, they'll understand one day".benchwarmer wrote:Welcome back, I really liked that explanation! We can disagree on just about everything, but you have a great sense of humor my friend.arian wrote: Sorry for the delayed response benchwarmer, but the earth stopped spinning and I landed on a Flat Earth, .. real hard like, so I'm just trying to regain my bearings. It's not everyday that you go from a Heliocentric to a Geocentric world.
That right there pretty much sums it up. If God can do whatever He likes regardless of whatever rules He puts in place for us, then there's really no point trying to understand what's going on.arian wrote: Yes, God does what He likes, what He considers good, and if you look around our world you can see that what we consider good don't work, .. well not for everyone anyways.
Yeah, I know what you mean. God acts as if He Created everything, and that as if we didn't know anything, right? But we'll show Him, we got the BB-Evolution stories down to just about where we can believe it, and feel proud of it!Benchwarmer wrote:My point is that there seems to be a disconnect between what God wants us to do and what God is allowed to do.
Again, I know what you mean, like you said, God commands us not to kill, yet the Old Testament is full of killing, especially by this King David fellow. I mean oh-my Lord, I just brushed up on my OT reading a bit and I tell you it was almost as bad as my teen-sons gaming where they shoot-em, slice-em and dice-em just about anyone, including their friends sometimes (I hate those games, and makes me almost sick to my stomach knowing he plays them.)Benchwarmer wrote:God is certainly not leading by example, but simply asking us to follow some rules regardless of what He is up to.
But don't you see, even if He did that (which He came very close to doing in the past) we still have free will. There is still that "Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" the ability to decide "should I, .. or shouldn't I?". Like others here suggested in our debates in the past that; God should never have put that tree of good and evil there, .. and we debated that to death already, remember?Benchwarmer wrote:At the very least, how about just wipe out those who were committing the sinful acts? God created the universe with a word and can't selectively take out those causing the problems?arian wrote: So tell me, what should God do (without interfering with free will) to make it all right? All just?
I know right? My dad used to tell me; "don't fight, don't hurt or hit your brother!", and proceeded to get the whip and beat me with it!?!?Benchwarmer wrote:I'm simply showing the internal inconsistency in the Bible.arian wrote: If you don't believe in the stories in the Bible, what's your point?
To paraphrase:
1) God says don't kill.
2) God gets angry and kills.
Well, I'm sure Gene Roddenberry left that for "special circumstances", after all, he is the creator of the sci-fi show, right?Benchwarmer wrote:You seem to like analogies so let's try another tack. Do you watch Star Trek? Within that 'universe' of stories they explain that ships have protective shields. At one point it's explained that they can't 'beam' people through shields. At another point people are seen to be beamed somewhere while the shields are still up. Controversy and cries of inconsistency are made even though this is all made up.
Again, the point is internal consistency. Don't make a rule then turn around and break your own rules.
What was your point again? Oh yeah, that God is unfair, He says don't kill, yet He kills. Like I said, I would love to hear your solution for this seeming "contradiction", and I'm sure even God Himself would love to hear the solution? So please, by all means, .. let's hear it!? You may use my analogy; 'kidnapping, rape and murder'.benchwarmer wrote:I'm sorry, but your clarification on the whole game analogy just confused me further. Thanks for taking the time, but I think the above makes my point without getting bogged down in arguing about computer game programming.
