There is no means presently available to prove . . .

[Zzyzx]

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There is no means presently available to prove that gods exist – or that they do not exist.

Likewise, there is no means presently available to prove how the universe originated or how life began.

Therefore, both are matters of speculation and opinon Not knowledge – and it is foolish to act as though either is known.

Ancients were often evidently not concerned about distinguishing between what was known and what was believed / imagined / concocted / fantasized. They made up or believed tales about supernatural influences in weather, disasters, diseases, crops, battles, everyday events, etc.

Many people currently share that position with ancients – and become convinced that they KNOW about supernatural entities, events, and influences (often believing the same things that people believed thousands of years ago).

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

There is no means presently available to prove that gods exist – or that they do not exist.

Would you be willing to accept a slight correction to this statement:
There is no physical means presently available to prove that gods exist – or that they do not exist.

The reason I included the word physical is that I believe there are non-physical means which are available to prove or disprove that God exists.

Every claim about supernatural events, God, demons, withcraft, mysticism and the like all share one element in common. This element is that of a soul/spirit realm.(Here I use the word realm in the same context scientist use the term dimensions. Each dimension is touted as a plane of existence)

Rather than look for God which is believed or understood to exist in the spiritual realm, we can look for evidence of a soul/spirit interaction between our physical world and this other possible spiritual realm. If we find evidence of a soul/spirit, we can then proceed to use what we learn to get additional information about the existence or lack of existence of God.

I do admit there is little evidence that a soul/spirit exists, but this is mainly due to a lack of investigation. It is hard to find what we are not looking for. Not impossible, just difficult.

Neurotheology is a relatively new branch of neuroscience which aims to discover such a connection. Some research has been done with promising leads, but the brain mapping technology does not appear complex enough to identify where thoughts originate. Thought we understand other parts of the human body quite well, the brain is still highly complex. We know thoughts and ideas are more than chemical reactions and neurons firing. These are the symptoms we identify after a thought "enters" the brain.

I've said all that to say, the soul/spirit is the mechanism we can use to verify God exists and the mechanism we can use to learn about Him and this other realm.

I hope this makes sense. I know when I start to speak of soul, spirit and realms things can go haywire pretty quickly.

[Zzyzx]

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There is no means presently available to prove that gods exist – or that they do not exist.

Would you be willing to accept a slight correction to this statement:
There is no physical means presently available to prove that gods exist – or that they do not exist.

The reason I included the word physical is that I believe there are non-physical means which are available to prove or disprove that God exists.

Kindly describe the non-physical means to prove (or disprove) that God exists – that anyone interested can use to make that determination (and all come up with comparable results).

A “test� which produces different results for different people does NOT confirm anything.

Every claim about supernatural events, God, demons, withcraft, mysticism and the like all share one element in common. This element is that of a soul/spirit realm.(Here I use the word realm in the same context scientist use the term dimensions. Each dimension is touted as a plane of existence)

Call it whatever you like – just show how it can be demonstrated to exist.

Rather than look for God which is believed or understood to exist in the spiritual realm, we can look for evidence of a soul/spirit interaction between our physical world and this other possible spiritual realm. If we find evidence of a soul/spirit, we can then proceed to use what we learn to get additional information about the existence or lack of existence of God.

Sure, we can speculate all over the spectrum.

I do admit there is little evidence that a soul/spirit exists,

Agreed. Thank you

but this is mainly due to a lack of investigation.

Then proponents have not done their job. There has evidently been considerable research but no definitive evidence found.

It is hard to find what we are not looking for. Not impossible, just difficult.

It is similarly difficult / impossible to find evidence for something that does not exist.

Neurotheology is a relatively new branch of neuroscience which aims to discover such a connection. Some research has been done with promising leads, but the brain mapping technology does not appear complex enough to identify where thoughts originate. Thought we understand other parts of the human body quite well, the brain is still highly complex. We know thoughts and ideas are more than chemical reactions and neurons firing. These are the symptoms we identify after a thought "enters" the brain.

I've said all that to say, the soul/spirit is the mechanism we can use to verify God exists and the mechanism we can use to learn about Him and this other realm.

It does not seem as though Neurotheology has been much help so far.

Newberg [Dr. Andrew Newberg – proponent of neurotheology] emphasizes that while neurotheology won't provide definitive findings about things like the existence of a higher power, it will provide a deeper understanding of what it means for a person to be religious.
"For those individuals who want to go down the path of arguing that all of our religious and spiritual experiences are nothing more than biological phenomena, some of this data does support that kind of a conclusion," Newberg says. "But the data also does not specifically eliminate the notion that there is a religious or spiritual or divine presence in the world."

Bold added

And

Neurotheology, also known as spiritual neuroscience,[1] attempts to explain religious experience and behaviour in neuroscientific terms.[2] It is the study of correlations of neural phenomena with subjective experiences of spirituality and hypotheses to explain these phenomena. This contrasts with the Psychology of religion which studies psychological, rather than neural, states.
Proponents of neurotheology say there is a neurological and evolutionary basis for subjective experiences traditionally categorized as spiritual or religious.[3] The field has formed the basis of several popular science books,[4][5][6] but has received criticism from psychologists.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotheology

The emerging field (since 1990s) seems to demonstrate that religion affects and/or is part of the human brain. Does that help show the existence of a “soul� or “god(s)�?

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 3 by Zzyzx]

I did say Neurotheology is a relatively new branch attempting to discover the connections between the soul and physical body.

Ridicule of what we do not currently have evidence for, has been proven to be a big mistake by scientist in the past. I hope we can learn from their mistakes, and just admit when we don't know something.

If we are able to detect the interaction between soul and body, that will only open a new mountain of questions.

Many of the famed scientists we love to point to (Newton, Einstein) were ridiculed by their peers. Years later we learned their theories were more than just fancy ideas.

[Zzyzx]

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I did say Neurotheology is a relatively new branch attempting to discover the connections between the soul and physical body.

Agreed

Ridicule of what we do not currently have evidence for, has been proven to be a big mistake by scientist in the past. I hope we can learn from their mistakes, and just admit when we don't know something.

“I do not accept� is not ridicule.

Accepting guesses without evidence is a common mistake.

If we are able to detect the interaction between soul and body, that will only open a new mountain of questions.

“IF� is the key word. IF that happens we can address the issue. Speculation is premature.

Many of the famed scientists we love to point to (Newton, Einstein) were ridiculed by their peers. Years later we learned their theories were more than just fancy ideas.

Many famed scientists have proposed hypotheses that were found to be BUNK.

Many people “glom onto� any idea that seems to support their preconceived notions – and ignore or deny anything that may contradict what they already believe.

[OnceConvinced]

It seems reasonable to me that people who don't know how the universe started may like to make up tales about how it started. The problem comes when people hundreds of years later take the made up tales to be literal history. Then we get into all sorts of trouble.

[ttruscott]

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There is no means presently available to prove that gods exist – or that they do not exist.

There is always the Christian means of proof, to seek GOD with prayers of repentance asking to be taught the truth. It is slow and not perfectly successful for a lot of people but successful enough for some people to counta as a method.