Belief in existence of God scientific. Denial - unscientific

[theStudent]

The length of the thread, in the link below, is largely due to repeated questions.on the contained information. The following is open for debate.
Belief in the existence of God is scientific. Denial - unscientific.

For those who disagree with the above, please state why, and/or provide evidence for the following:

• God does not exist.
• God exists only in the mind of the believer.
• Miracles do not happen.
• The Bible is a book of myths.

[otseng]

You have gotten your answer
Also, if you are following the thread, you are getting added information.
I don't know why you are not replying to any of it, but keep repeating your request.

Moderator Comment

Instead of saying you've already presented it, provide at a minimum the post number where you presented it. Also, there's no need to enlarge the font in red to make your point.


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[theStudent]

[Replying to post 226 by Bust Nak]

How is a sand dune the same as a sand-castle?

Exactly.

Do you mean "Exactly", as in they are not the same, or they are the same?

Good, it's called hasty generalization. Now swap out sand dune/sand castle with human/artificial intelligence, do you see why that your claim is fallacious?

No.
And I don't understand what you are saying here.
Kindly explain, and also an observed experiment may help.
Can this be built without an intelligence?

[theStudent]

How does Red Shift show that the universe was a speck? There is no evidence here.
Speculation.

Give me an argument that concludes the existence of God that contains zero speculation

How does one know if this is true history, or mere speculation, even going furthur back in history?
http://www.biography.com/people/cleopat ... 4#synopsis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_Kingdom

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 232 by theStudent]

Can this be built without an intelligence?

That picture was lovely.
But your question just demonstrates how confused ID is.

Everybody ( even a very small child ) knows that sandcastles are built by intelligent humans. But you aren't trying to prove that humans exist, are you?

"Can the sand be "built" without an intelligence?" should be your question.
And the answer to that isn't so obvious, unless, of course, you presuppose a creative intelligent sand designer.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 234 by Blastcat]

Everybody ( even a very small child ) knows that sandcastles are built by intelligent humans. But you aren't trying to prove that humans exist, are you?

This is one of the things I wanted to know.
Why can't a sandcastle form without an intelligence, but a sand dune can form from natural processes?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 235 by theStudent]

Why can't a sandcastle form without an intelligence, but a sand dune can form from natural processes?

Ok.. glad you asked.

We actually DO know how sand dunes happen.
The wind, the sand.. how that works to make very regular shapes.

Sure.. it can look even "designed"... because of the regularity...
Nature forms a WHOLE lot of regularities...

But there is nothing about a sand dune or a wave on an ocean or a snowflake or tree leaves or flower shapes or even cloud formations that require any thing else but the laws of physics to explain how they happened.

You want to know about how sand dunes get their regular looking shapes?

Is the wind intelligent ?
Is the sand intelligent ?
Is gravity intelligent ?

That's all it takes to have sand dunes.

Where IS the intelligence?

Now, a sand CASTLE we know takes a human. A designer.. no sand castle will ever come about by wind and sand and gravity alone..

We look at the sand dune, and we say to ourselves "Look at the beauty of that.. I know it was designed because I know someone must have thought it up before building it. And I know it also had to be a human being that did it."

We know that human beings create things and design things and plan for things and have meanings and care and love and hate and are jealous and all of that.

When it thunders.. and we have destructive weather.. we could say something like "Oh my.. SOMEONE is angry up there" , and many people did in the past and many people still do.

But that's a mistake. Scientists can also explain how most of our weather patters happen. Heat, humidity, the earth spinning... the air.. the water... cold.. all of it. And yes, gravity.. I forgot gravity.

But more specifically about sand dunes...

http://www.desertusa.com/geofacts/sanddune.html

There are great pictures there showing you just how they happen, and there is no designer ...

So.. sand dunes happen naturally.. no god required..

The components of sand dunes happen naturally, too. No god required... no "Intelligent Design" required or demonstrated, either.

We can explain how all of that happens.

Does that come close to answering your question?
Maybe you have some more questions.. to dig deeper into this.. ID is very confusing... and the propaganda for it is SO strong..

Just try to stick with the facts, and you won't go wrong... as soon as the facts stop coming, that's a clue that someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes.

[Neatras]

[Replying to post 236 by Blastcat]

To put it very shortly, we judge the 'natural' phenomenon based on our understanding of the natural processes taking place in specific geographical locations.

In a desert, the natural processes present and relevant are the ones that produce sand dunes. We don't know of any natural process capable of creating sand castles, so we can rationally claim that sand castles are made by people.

Natural processes produce some pretty amazing things, like snowflakes. So we can't rely on just the idea of sand dunes and sand castles to lay a distinction between intelligent processes and natural ones.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 237 by Neatras]

[Replying to post 236 by Blastcat]

To put it very shortly, we judge the 'natural' phenomenon based on our understanding of the natural processes taking place in specific geographical locations.

In a desert, the natural processes present and relevant are the ones that produce sand dunes. We don't know of any natural process capable of creating sand castles, so we can rationally claim that sand castles are made by people.

Natural processes produce some pretty amazing things, like snowflakes. So we can't rely on just the idea of sand dunes and sand castles to lay a distinction between intelligent processes and natural ones.

Right...

And we have to be very careful about our capacity to "read in to things". We humans are prone to cognitive errors.. so we should always be on the lookout for them.. and if we don't know what they are... they might be happening all the more.

I just finished a lecture series on critical thinking and before it began, I actually thought " Ha, this is going to be boring, I could TEACH this stuff" ... And then by the time the lecturer started in with the cognitive biases.. that LONG LIST of cognitive biases.. I wasn't so smug anymore. I was guilty of almost ALL of them...at one time or another.. and many I was STILL falling for.

I really thought I knew this stuff frontwards and backwards... the joke was on me.
One sure sign of ME being wrong?

When I'm SURE of something.

[arian]

[Replying to post 235 by theStudent]

Why can't a sandcastle form without an intelligence, but a sand dune can form from natural processes?

Ok.. glad you asked.

We actually DO know how sand dunes happen.
The wind, the sand.. how that works to make very regular shapes.

Sure.. it can look even "designed"... because of the regularity...
Nature forms a WHOLE lot of regularities...

But there is nothing about a sand dune or a wave on an ocean or a snowflake or tree leaves or flower shapes or even cloud formations that require any thing else but the laws of physics to explain how they happened.

You want to know about how sand dunes get their regular looking shapes?

Is the wind intelligent ?
Is the sand intelligent ?
Is gravity intelligent ?

That's all it takes to have sand dunes.

Where IS the intelligence?

Now, a sand CASTLE we know takes a human. A designer.. no sand castle will ever come about by wind and sand and gravity alone..

Oh come on, .. where is your faith in "natural selection", .. huh? This sand particle goes here, then that one goes there and in a few thousand years "sand castle".

Nature can't create a sand castle, BUT, it can take a sweating rock, starting with a single celled bacteria and through "natural selection" make a human out of it, but a sand castle? Never, .. lol.

We look at the sand dune, and we say to ourselves "Look at the beauty of that.. I know it was designed because I know someone must have thought it up before building it. And I know it also had to be a human being that did it."

We know that human beings create things and design things and plan for things and have meanings and care and love and hate and are jealous and all of that.

When it thunders.. and we have destructive weather.. we could say something like "Oh my.. SOMEONE is angry up there" , and many people did in the past and many people still do.

Oh yeah, it's not God, but that careless Mother Nature, she can create the most complex things all she needs is her husband Father Time.

But that's a mistake. Scientists can also explain how most of our weather patters happen. Heat, humidity, the earth spinning... the air.. the water... cold.. all of it. And yes, gravity.. I forgot gravity.

But more specifically about sand dunes...

http://www.desertusa.com/geofacts/sanddune.html

There are great pictures there showing you just how they happen, and there is no designer ...

So.. sand dunes happen naturally.. no god required..

Like a scientist, Mother nature can create the scientists, but she can't create a robot like ASIMO, now how is that?

Not only that, but it took over a hundred years for Intelligent Design to make a simple robot to walk up the stairs, so I guess there is no way "I.D." could create an entire human body, and give it life of it's own, .. not the I.D. programmed kind, but one that can reason on his own, with its own free will.

The components of sand dunes happen naturally, too. No god required... no "Intelligent Design" required or demonstrated, either.

We can explain how all of that happens.

Then explain 'how' "sand castles" don't happen?

[Neatras]

arian has posted yet another strawman. Move along.

I can't help but wonder WHY he's allowed to get away with this kind of derailing. We've torn apart his strawmen countless times, stating explicitly that the things he says have no basis in logic; he's also extremely uncharitable to his opponent's arguments, twisting them to form the most absurd statements. He has no debate ethic I can actually discern.