Science and Consciousness

[OpenYourEyes]

This video is a TED talk of Nanci Trivellato who is an intelligent Brazilian woman with a graduate degree in research methods of psychology. She had an out-of-body experience as a child.

Nanci Trivellato's presentation is strictly academic (but not technical!) and no religion is involved. She makes the best and organized case for this matter that I've seen so far which is why I thought everyone might enjoy!!

[youtube][/youtube]
19 minute video

- She starts off by describing her childhood OBE experiences.
- She then talks about common features in OBEs throughout the general population.
- She then discusses the need for a consciousness specialty science and lays out a blueprint of what that science should involve (the methods, criteria, etc).
- Enjoy!

[rikuoamero]

Before I watch the video, I have a couple of questions.

Is it your contention that consciousness is something not a product of, or contained, within the brain? I.e. that what this woman describes is possible?
In other words, that physical brains are not necessary to have consciousness?

Also, is it your contention (like the lady in the video describes) that one is able to 'see' things in an OBE despite not having ANY sensory organs at all?
That's pretty much what the lady describes. She somehow left her body, travelled to a city, and was somehow able to see things despite not possessing eyes or any sort of brain able to process what she would have seen had she been physically there.

Also, in regards to her story, all we have to work with is her own story. She doesn't provide any evidence at all that what she describes happened. By her own words, it was "50 years ago". More than enough time for her memory to have been jumbled. It is a scientific fact that some people who swear up and down that they weren't told X were in fact told X. I remember reading studies on the matter, can't find them now.
It is possible that the lady was told about her uncle's condition when she was young, dreamed it, then over the years, her memory got jumbled around and she ended up believing that as a young child she left her body in the middle of the night and saw her uncle, and that she hadn't been told about it.

[Zzyzx]

.

By her own words, it was "50 years ago". More than enough time for her memory to have been jumbled.

A lot of work has been done by psychologists regarding false memories.

Memories seem unchanging and solid. Moreover, they help make us who we are. Many people consider themselves to be the sum of their memories. And yet, strong evidence exists that suggests our memories are highly complex, malleable, and extremely falliable. Through effective suggestion, we can be made to remember things that never happened, or in less extreme cases, change the details of things that really did happen. How much of what you remember is real, and how much is illusion?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/false-memories

Also
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/1996/09 ... ories.html

[jgh7]

Until they can get someone who can willingly have OBE's so that they can be studied as they happen, this all will remain hearsay. Darn shame, I do find the idea of OBE's to be very interesting.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 4 by jgh7]

There already have been studies into OBE's. I can't provide links so readers will want to take the following with a grain of salt, but one of the studies I looked at before involved putting a block with a very conspicuous picture high up on a shelf, such that the noticeable drawing wouldn't be seen by anybody walking around in the room as normal, but could be seen by any spirits floating around above people's heads, like is described in OBE's.
Not one of the people in the study mentioned this very strange picture. Just like, to date, no-one has yet to answer what is on my sheet of paper (if you don't know it yourself jgh7, it's a sheet of paper with an embarrassing detail of my life that I haven't told anyone).

[jgh7]

[Replying to rikuoamero]

Well the second I have an OBE that's the first thing I'm looking at.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to rikuoamero]

Well the second I have an OBE that's the first thing I'm looking at.

You don't have to have an OBE. You could just talk to God, ask him, or any other proposed spiritual entity that supposedly knows all.
Ya know...like the many people I've encountered on this forum who've made claims like that yet for some incomprehensible reason haven't tried my challenge at all...

[OpenYourEyes]

Before I watch the video, I have a couple of questions.

Is it your contention that consciousness is something not a product of, or contained, within the brain? I.e. that what this woman describes is possible?
In other words, that physical brains are not necessary to have consciousness?

The main reason I posted this video is because the speaker did an outstanding job breaking down what a science of consciousness should involve.

More specifically to your questions, yes, I believe that out-of-body experiences are possible. You should probably start off focusing on the mind/body problem before moving on to extraordinary aspects. I recommend this because if you don't accept mind/body dualism, then you will likely not find OBEs plausible unless you have your own experience. I explained the reasons for my belief in another thread here .

Also, is it your contention (like the lady in the video describes) that one is able to 'see' things in an OBE despite not having ANY sensory organs at all?

I wouldn't call it seeing in the literal sense of course, but rather OBErs are said to have an awareness of their environment. I don't know how this process works, but keep in mind that not knowing how something occurs does not mean that that something (consciousness, etc.) does not occur. I will say though that we've had centuries where the issue was left in the domain of philosophy but now we have empirical evidence to justify some form dualism, at least. Evidence for genuine OBEs, as opposed to artificially stimulated OBEs, may be forthcoming.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 8 by OpenYourEyes]

but rather OBErs are said to have an awareness of their environment.

Explain please how someone is able to have an awareness of their external environment sans any senses at all. How does information from the outside world travel to whatever it is an OBE'r is using to process said information?

I wouldn't call it seeing in the literal sense of course

The lady in the video described it as seeing. She (supposedly) saw her uncle, saw what was happening to him as if she were physically there. It's sight or some analogue of sight that somehow works without sensory organs or processing organs of any kind.

I recommend this because if you don't accept mind/body dualism,

You're right, I don't, if you mean the consciousness is contained entirely within the body. The fact that people suffering brain damage can sometimes have alterations to their personality indicates to me that there's nothing non-organic about the mind/consciousness, that there can't be a separate soul.

then you will likely not find OBEs plausible unless you have your own experience.

Not likely. I take being a skeptic very seriously. A sample size of one (in my hypothetical case) would not be enough to convince me that OBE's are a thing that actually happen.

Evidence for genuine OBEs, as opposed to artificially stimulated OBEs, may be forthcoming.

Until then, there is no justifiable reason (in my opinion) to believe that they actually happen.

[OpenYourEyes]

[Replying to post 8 by OpenYourEyes]

but rather OBErs are said to have an awareness of their environment.

Explain please how someone is able to have an awareness of their external environment sans any senses at all. How does information from the outside world travel to whatever it is an OBE'r is using to process said information?

I already answered your question in my previous post. We need more research and testing to explain the how. Perhaps, focusing on a more basic level like the mind/body problem will yield some insight into these extraordinary areas.

[Replying to post 8 by OpenYourEyes]

I wouldn't call it seeing in the literal sense of course

The lady in the video described it as seeing. She (supposedly) saw her uncle, saw what was happening to him as if she were physically there. It's sight or some analogue of sight that somehow works without sensory organs or processing organs of any kind.

I mentioned her not seeing anything because she wasn't using her eyes.

[Replying to post 8 by OpenYourEyes]

I recommend this because if you don't accept mind/body dualism,

You're right, I don't, if you mean the consciousness is contained entirely within the body. The fact that people suffering brain damage can sometimes have alterations to their personality indicates to me that there's nothing non-organic about the mind/consciousness, that there can't be a separate soul.

Your point about brain damage is one-sided because there's also scientific evidence that thoughts and behaviors can change brain structure. Putting both or all facts together, mind-body dualism is very plausible. Keep in mind that brain damage does not conflict with dualism because while the mind and body are considered separate entities but they are still interdependent.

then you will likely not find OBEs plausible unless you have your own experience.

Not likely. I take being a skeptic very seriously. A sample size of one (in my hypothetical case) would not be enough to convince me that OBE's are a thing that actually happen.

It would be more logical to go by evidence and reason rather than the number of people who believe in or share your experiences. For example, if you had ONE OBE where you were able to VERIFY an event, just like the speaker in my posted video, then that would be good evidence.