I can't prove it to you, but I know it's true

[jgh7]

Thanks Christians. After all the years on this forum, this is the best summary I can make for you guys as far as your debating goes. And where does that get me or anyone else for that matter in a debate...

Nowhere.

[Divine Insight]

If they claim to know it's true they aren't paying attention. Even Jesus asked people to believe on faith. It's a faith-based religion even according to Jesus.

[ttruscott]

Thanks Christians. After all the years on this forum, this is the best summary I can make for you guys as far as your debating goes. And where does that get me or anyone else for that matter in a debate...

Nowhere.

I have seen the evidence and it is enough to convince me to believe its truth. I did not accept the evidence I was given at first until I experienced GOD HIMself in my life and mind and then the rest became also acceptable. This is HIS work, to reveal HIMself to us so we cannot make a mistake. Not receiving HIS revelation is not the fault of Christians, you are either under HIS promise to get what you need or you are not and will never get it.

You might as well blame a starfish for a cloudy day...

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

I have seen the evidence and it is enough to convince me to believe its truth.

I did not accept the evidence I was given at first until I experienced GOD HIMself

In other words, the ‘evidence’ ISN'T enough!

[OpenYourEyes]

Thanks Christians. After all the years on this forum, this is the best summary I can make for you guys as far as your debating goes. And where does that get me or anyone else for that matter in a debate...

Nowhere.

Which Christian claims are you referring to? The historicity of Jesus? God's existence?

If you're looking for scientific evidence for either, the former you won't find any just as you wouldn't find for most other past-historical events because of the limitations of science. As for the latter, you also won't find any direct evidence, especially considering that God is non-physical, BUT we can deduce from scientific facts to draw a logical conclusion. I wouldn't go as far as to call it a scientific argument as some theists have and I only say that because the conclusion is not empirically verified fact, but something can still be logical without being scientifically validated (although science might catch up to the conclusion with future evidence). For instance, what else can we say existed outside of our Universe (besides just alternate Universes) that would be sufficient to cause our Universe?

[OpenYourEyes]

Thanks Christians. After all the years on this forum, this is the best summary I can make for you guys as far as your debating goes. And where does that get me or anyone else for that matter in a debate...

Nowhere.

Your claim is a blanket statement and I'm always a little skeptical about those type of claims.

Can you elaborate on what specific claim/belief that Christians can't prove? If you're referring to the overall picture of a Christian worldview, then I will be the first to admit that my worldview is not proven, and in some aspects, probably not provable. However, it provides the most likely or best explanation for life compared to the atheistic worldview. Keep in mind, that even if scientists have not proven God but a good # of premises in theistic arguments are backed by scientific facts!

I'm assuming you are an atheist, so I'd also question if you've proven that your atheistic worldview is valid.

[jgh7]

[Replying to OpenYourEyes]

I guess the main thing is that Christians can't prove that the miracles and supernatural events that happened in the bible are true and not made up or embellished.

If all I have to go on is the bible and word of mouth, and if there's no way of knowing if it's true or not, then that gets me nowhere.

What premises in theistic arguments are backed by scientific fact? And further how do these point towards Christianity and not just general theism?

I'm an agnostic. I go by the worldview that the truth behind ideas such as God are unknown, at least unkown to me. I am similar to atheists in that I'm highly skeptical on religions and lean towards them being man-made inventions.

[OpenYourEyes]

If all I have to go on is the bible and word of mouth, and if there's no way of knowing if it's true or not, then that gets me nowhere.

Have you considered that it might do good to do some fieldwork by praying, going to Spirit-filled churches, etc? By 'spirit-filled' I'm referring to Churches that believe in the spiritual gifts and that they continue today, like in Pentecostal denomination Churches. From my childhood experience, the most prevalent spiritual gift was the gift of prophecy. You might find something along the lines of 1 Corinthians 14:23-25.

What premises in theistic arguments are backed by scientific fact? And further how do these point towards Christianity and not just general theism?

Yo address your 2nd question first, Christian philosophers have a series of arguments that they use from different fields. Put together they make for a cumulative/probable case for the Christian God's existence.

As for your first question, lets take Kalam's Cosmological Argument as an example. The prevailing scientific view of the Universe is that of the Big Bang, in that the Universe had a beginning. There's also the 2nd law of thermodynamics which indicates that the Universe had a finite past, otherwise it would've already run out of usable energy which would result in 'heat death'.

Sources:
Big Bang- http://now.tufts.edu/articles/beginning-was-beginning
Second law of thermodynamics- http://www.livescience.com/50941-second ... amics.html (Read section titled Fate of the Universe).

If the Universe did not always exist, the same goes for space, time, and matter, then the cause would have to contain the absence of those properties. The cause would have to involve something uncaused, timeless, non-material, etc. God is a prime candidate, just by definition.

I'm an agnostic. I go by the worldview that the truth behind ideas such as God are unknown, at least unkown to me. I am similar to atheists in that I'm highly skeptical on religions and lean towards them being man-made inventions.

I admire agnostics because they have a spirit of open-mindedness to them, and this is very good quality to have when doing research. Just don't get too used to being on the fence ; ). I wish you godspeed on your journey!

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 7 by OpenYourEyes]

The KCA is an interesting topic. I'm still waiting for this one Christian user (I forget his name) to create his KCA thread. He's the same one who made the Modal Ontological thread and that was very entertaining. I'll have my fair share of questions when he does.

Christian philosophers have a series of arguments that they use from different fields. Put together they make for a cumulative/probable case for the Christian God's existence.

Would you be able to list some of the main Christian philosophical arguments arguing for the Christian God's existence. You don't have to explain them if you don't want to. If those arguments go by names/titles just like the KCA does, then I can at least google them.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 4 by Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

I have seen the evidence and it is enough to convince me to believe its truth.

I did not accept the evidence I was given at first until I experienced GOD HIMself

In other words, the ‘evidence’ ISN'T enough!

Sshhhhhh .

We are in the presence of someone who has experienced GOD HIMself.

Maybe that what he expects us to think that anything he says must be taken AS TRUE. In any case.... special guy!