Christian 'Drop-outs'

[OpenYourEyes]

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Just to elaborate on some terms and why I started this thread...
A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely. The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections. As such, I tend to not spend much time answering their every objection and instead I help lay a foundation for them (in their thinking) where they can find the answers themselves because all the main problem boils down to is a problem dealing with doubt.

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

[agnosticatheist]

I suppose that I dropped out of Chrisitianity because I had spent enough time being open to the faith. I was in college and joined a Christian group, went to bible studies, did weekend activities with Christians, and even went on a Christian retreat. I kept an open willing mind through all of it. This lasted roughly a year.

Eventually I concluded that my faith was not there. Perhaps the main reason is that I don't trust the bible as being God's book. It has not convinced me that it is. Without that basic belief, Christian faith is impossible.

My point about Christian drop outs was not meant to include all Christians who leave the faith, but rather it's a term I came up with to label those who left the faith for reasons that could have been avoided or resolved. They left the faith prematurely, in other words. One common scenario that I encounter are atheists who leave Christianity because of some nagging doubt or objection, but then they fail to do any serious searching for answers.

How deep and long should they search? I have searched for close to 8 years, and I dont see how christianity could be true because of this simple problem that invalidates all others: there is currently no way to verify if: the proposition "there exists at least one higher power" is true or false, and the proposition "there does not exist at least one higher power" is true or false. So, we are stuck in neutral, with no way of knowing if a god exists or not. You can say "I believe there is a god", but that says nothing as to whether there actually is a god or not. When you say "Yeah, maybe there is no god, but im going to believe there is a god", you are basically saying you dont care about whether there is actually a god or not...

Also, a core idea of christianity, islam, judaism, etc, is that you can choose to follow god (the path of good) or reject god (the path of evil). Clearly those religions have a concept of good vs evil, and understand that choosing god is choosing good, and rejecting god is choosing evil. Well, how do they know god is the good guy? They have not and cannot verify that god is the good guy. They could actually be following the bad guy if they follow allah, adonai, etc, and they would have no way of knowing. What if the "god" they are following is actually a spiritual "trickster" entity who tries to fool you into thinking he will take care of you by helping other people and claiming he will do the same for you, but then leads you down a path of destruction that you couldnt possibly have seen coming? Theres no way to know if that is or isnt the case, so the best course of action is to proceed as if there is no god and act however you see fit...

If you want to be less hardcore than that, then it's like this:

There might be a god, but until it's proven that there is, there is no reason to assume there is one, so then the best course of action is to proceed as if there is no god and act how you see fit.

[OpenYourEyes]

When certain atheists keep raising objections that inaccurately portrays Christianity then I can only presume that they lack an understanding of Christianity, philosophy, and science. Also, it's likely that this misunderstanding existed before they left Christianity and influenced their decision.

What constitutes an inaccurate portrayal of Christianity?

Christianity itself is a hodgepodge of disagreeing sects and denominations. Even the Christian Apologists can't agree with each other or convince each other. In short, there doesn't even exists a convincing Christianity. Catholicism and Protestantism reject each other, and the Protestants themselves consist of a myriad of disagreeing apologists/theologians.

The true wonder is why anyone actually believes in this religion at all.

The idea that there even exists a consistent and understandable Christian theology is seriously a joke.

Most would reach the same conclusion as you if they only do a superficial examination but if you probed deeper you'd find out that the differences are not that great when it comes to the important characteristics of Christianity. For instance, the overwhelming majority of Christian denominations believe in the divinity of Christ, the resurrection, the nature of God, the authority of Scripture, they share the same Bible canon, etc. Dividing over what day to worship, as Seventh-day Adventists are distinguished for has little impact on understanding the core messages of Christianity.

[OpenYourEyes]

I personally don't require or ask for scientific evidence for the Bible. To the contrary we already have scientific evidence that the Bible is necessarily false in all of it's claims. So science has already proven the Bible to be false claims.

I'm not sure how science has proven all of the Bible wrong when history and archaeology has been used to verify some parts of the Bible. You're clearly not on the same page as people who actually study the Bible. Also, the God described in the Bible serves as the more likely explanation (compared to atheism) for a lot of things in the world, starting with the origins of the Universe, objective morality, the nature of consciousness, etc, so you're also not on the same page as many philosophers and scientists as well. The informed ones don't speak as boldly with the amount of certainty as you do unless they're all wrong and you're right. Perhaps you know something special that all of these thinkers are missing out on?

However, on top of the scientific evidence that the Bible is false, I can also clearly see that it necessarily has to be false because it portrays a supposedly all-wise, super-intelligent and supposedly benevolent entity to behave in totally unwise, and ignorant ways that are far from benevolent. So even if I didn't have the scientific evidence that the Bible is false, I would still need to reject it on the obvious grounds that no intelligent super-entity could be as stupid as the Bible requires.

Based on this point of yours and your previous one you have not demonstrated that you've done much critical research in this area. All I see so far from a lot of your posts are a bunch of polemics strung together to paint Christianity in the most negative or unreasonable light.

[OpenYourEyes]

When certain atheists keep raising objections that inaccurately portrays Christianity then I can only presume that they lack an understanding of Christianity, philosophy, and science. Also, it's likely that this misunderstanding existed before they left Christianity and influenced their decision.

There ya go - attack, slander, slur, and libel anyone who rejects your stupid arguments.

I have not attacked, slandered, slurred, nor libeled anyone. This is clearly an ad hominem.

The Bible contains biographies, history, ordinary and extraordinary experiences, non-literal genres, etc. Just how do you expect all of these aspects to be proven true?

I don't expect 'em to be proven true. I expect the honorable debater to not lie to us.

Good, so then you acknowledge the limitations of science?! In fact, people don't realize how limited science is when it can not even objectively assess the most prevailing phenomena that even makes science possible, ie our thoughts or their contents thereof. So far, this is all left in the realm of experience. Now, if only I can get you to acknowledge that the other matters I brought up about the Bible can also be validated experientially, in part.

Excuses for a lack of evidence are the pitiful arguments of the pitiful.

Like I mentioned to Zzyzx and many others, if you want to investigate God using science then you will likely be frustrated in the end. I recommend from experience of mine and many others, that you will likely become convinced of God when you rely on a multi-disciplinary approach that incorporates science, philosophy, religion, history, experience, etc.  

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 23 by OpenYourEyes]

I have not attacked, slandered, slurred, nor libeled anyone. This is clearly an ad hominem.

Yes you have. From your OP

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

This quite clearly is an attempt at talking about myself, since recently, you and I were talking and I mentioned an answer my former religion teacher gave me as to why there are no female priests in Roman Catholicism. I mentioned that at the time, I didn't pursue this topic. I mentioned dropping the religion.
However, in your OP, although you do not name me, you portray me as someone who NEVER put in any effort whatsoever into research of religion (which was true at the time I asked the teacher that question) and even worse you say that I DROPPED OUT OF MY CLASS.
Notice here that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has responded on this thread has criticised your actions here, even those who believe there is a God.
I'm still waiting for my apology.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 22 by OpenYourEyes]

Also, the God described in the Bible serves as the more likely explanation (compared to atheism) for a lot of things in the world, starting with the origins of the Universe, objective morality,

Really? So a god who, on one occasion, commands his [strike]jihadis[/strike] followers to wipe out every person in a city and keep the virgin women for themselves...yet on the other occasion commands to love thy neighbour and turn their cheek to their enemies...
that's what you consider to be the explanation for objective morality?

[OpenYourEyes]

My point about Christian drop outs was not meant to include all Christians who leave the faith, but rather it's a term I came up with to label those who left the faith for reasons that could have been avoided or resolved. They left the faith prematurely, in other words. One common scenario that I encounter are atheists who leave Christianity because of some nagging doubt or objection, but then they fail to do any serious searching for answers.

How deep and long should they search? I have searched for close to 8 years...

I can not give you a definite time or depth, but within reason, I like to use the analogy of working on a research paper. When doing a research paper, you usually don't spend 5 minutes on the internet reading through just a few sites (or just the sites that give you a "popular" understanding), regardless of the quality or credentials of the author. You'd want to take it seriously and critically considering a particular topic and reviewing multiple sources from well-published/credentialed and putting it all together yourself to ensure that you understand as much as you can. I would recommend to not only do thisfor the issues that you doubt but also for the issues that you accept so that your acceptance might become stronger and intellectually reinforced. When you see that you've completed some good research then I'd say you can reassess your position, if needed.

Many Christians do NOT do this when they have doubts but instead they are exposed to a lot of atheistic views in college and online, and without question they cower to it. Some immediately jump on forum websites where there are plenty atheists which I also think is also a bad idea. When I was in college, I encountered many Christians who not only lack understanding of their own faith and also lacked knowledge about the intellectual aspect that Christianity has to offer (natural theology, Christian apologetics, philosophy, history, etc) which many times refutes atheistic viewpoints. Not to be smug but this is really unacceptable on the part of Christians.

My final advice, if you are a Christian is to establish a good foundation for why you believe in God, even if there's just one or a few good reasons you can gather. If you aren't a Christian then I recommend taking a multi-disciplinary approach that incorporates science, philosophy, theology, history, Christian apologetics, etc. It is folly to try to pursue God using only science and it's no wonder why many atheists frustrate themselves (although their problem is having a lack of understanding the limits of science).

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 23:

I have not attacked, slandered, slurred, nor libeled anyone. This is clearly an ad hominem.

You're accusing folks of not believing Christian claims because they "lack understanding". You don't allow for it being YOU who lacks "understanding".

Good, so then you acknowledge the limitations of science?!

I acknowledge the Christian's inability to show he speaks truth.

In fact, people don't realize how limited science is when it can not even objectively assess the most prevailing phenomena that even makes science possible, ie our thoughts or their contents thereof.

Science has done a great job explaining how minds are the product of physical brains.

That science fails the Christian is not my problem.

So far, this is all left in the realm of experience. Now, if only I can get you to acknowledge that the other matters I brought up about the Bible can also be validated experientially, in part.

I'm unware of anyone who has experienced the presence of a god. That you can't show such a claim is truth is a problem for you, not me.

Like I mentioned to Zzyzx and many others, if you want to investigate God using science then you will likely be frustrated in the end.

I'm perfectly content having examined various religious claims, only to see just how empty they are. That Christianity is not supportable by the scientific method is a problem for the Christian, not the scientist.

I recommend from experience of mine and many others, that you will likely become convinced of God when you rely on a multi-disciplinary approach that incorporates science, philosophy, religion, history, experience, etc.

You left out wishful thinking.

[Zzyzx]

.

A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely.

Unsupported opinion noted.

I am an example of one who dropped out of high school and dropped out of religion – for exactly the same reason – waste of my time. I realized early-on that we each have 168 hours per week to do what we decide – and I choose to make wise use of those hours.

After serving in the military for three years I went to college / university which was not a waste of my time. Graduating with honors in three years (sciences) proved my point that high school was a waste of time (none who graduated high school did any better). After a few years in graduate school I became a university professor – for ten years – then “dropped out� for again the same reason, it had become a waste of my time.

For thirty five years I have explored the entire US with a comfortable RV fifth-wheel trailer as my home (and it still is though it is now parked on property I own in my choice of a place to live – Arkansas). Those years have not been a waste of my time but have resulted in thousands of learning experiences and adventures.

It has been about sixty-five years since I dropped out of religion. I have wasted no time fantasizing, imagining, praying, hoping, wishing, worshiping, making excuses, feeling guilty, or performing rituals. Instead, I have actually DONE things, accomplished many objectives, live(d) a full / interesting / satisfying / fulfilling life. Those who attempt to tell me it would be better with religion are at a total loss to show me how that would be true.

The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely.

Grandiose generalization, limited perspective, personal opinion, unsubstantiated.

It is a cheap shot by Apologists to claim that those who “leave the faith� (Apostates) do so for shallow reasons. Reading www.clergyproject.org confirms that many who have sincerely studied related issues leave Christianity for very valid reasons. Many who debate here as Non-Theists spent decades as fervent believers.

Don't even attempt to cheapen them by claiming that they left for shallow reasons.

I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing.

Stick around here and debate some of the strong debaters who are Ex-Christians (and those were not every religious) and actually read what they have to say – without god glasses fogging the matter.

There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections.

My reason for rejecting Christianity (shared with many) is its total failure to produce verifiable evidence that its stories and claims are truthful and accurate. I have “researched� this for ten years of membership in this Forum debating any Theist who is willing – and have yet to encounter ANYTHING more than “Take my word for it (or his or this book)� – or “Seek an emotional experience�.

As such, I tend to not spend much time answering their every objection and instead I help lay a foundation for them (in their thinking) where they can find the answers themselves because all the main problem boils down to is a problem dealing with doubt.

Doubt is a healthy attitude in life. Realists are aware that all is not as it seems or as it is told.

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them.

One down and a hundred to go. Try applying your theories / opinions to what I say above.

Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

Christendom's “answer� appears to be “pray harder, read the Bible more, go to retreats, keep believing so you can go to heaven� NOT check the accuracy of Bible tales and church dogma – NOT learn about the authorship of gospels (and the rest of the Bible). Not compare what is said to what is presently known of the real world.

How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

I see no reason to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith. Preachers have a vested interest in maintaining membership and believers may have an interest in keeping the in-group large. What other reasons apply?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?

“Welcome to the liberated group made up of people who have learned that life has meaning and purpose without depending on invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural entities (that cannot be shown to be anything more than imaginary).�

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 28 by Zzyzx]

Christendom's “answer� appears to be “pray harder, read the Bible more, go to retreats, keep believing so you can go to heaven� NOT check the accuracy of Bible tales and church dogma – NOT learn about the authorship of gospels (and the rest of the Bible). Not compare what is said to what is presently known of the real world.

Christendom's answer, at least in this, is to mis-characterize the person in question. Despite the fact that I was being very careful in my previous responses and said exactly what happened, Christendom's response here was to twist what I said into saying I dropped classes.
Either Christendom here doesn't read carefully, knowingly twisted what I said into saying I dropped classes when I quite clearly stated I dropped the religion...or something else is going on. Either way, no attempt was made to contact me, to ensure that I was being talked about accurately.