What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #501

Post by Neatras »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 494 by Neatras]

Thanks for being so thorough, but I already saw most of this, so a link would have been okay.
  1. Could you provide proof that ERVs are viral infections that entered the organism, and at what point.
  2. In the name of fairness, and honesty, would you agree that for one to claim that ERVs prove evolution, one must prove that evolution is a fact?
    For example, do you consider it fair, that in order for one to claim that God did anything, they must first prove that God exists?
    If the answer is yes, then my question to you is this:
    Since none of us were there, when life started, what proof do you have that life evolved from a common ancestor. (the first question is still valid.)
My answers:

You have once again demonstrated an inability to grasp what science is. There is no "proof". Not now, not ever. I will never be able to prove gravity, or germs, or even that electromagnetism exists. Science does not work that way.

I do not have proof that ERV's are the result of retroviral infection. I have conclusive evidence that supports the theory. Do not mistake this for uncertainty. To assert that ERV's are not the result of retroviral infection is one of the biggest mistakes one could make, in light of all evidence shown.

Evolution describes how ERV's develop. It is the only theory to do so. It is the theory with the capabilities of making these connections between facts.

I will now reference my last post.
Science does not deal in proofs. Requiring every single bit of evidence to "prove" something is illogical. A theory exists to explain the facts, how can those facts then be made "proof" of a theory? The answer is that they don't; they simply lend credibility to the theory if it is capable of explaining the facts reliably, every time. Evolutionary theory has successfully lasted through another wave of facts being presented. When ERV's were discovered, evolutionary theory was left intact; it did not get destroyed, and in fact common ancestry wasn't even revised. It was considered a natural, congruent component for how life would have developed. You have so much concern with theories "changing over time" that I'm wondering how you'll react to a theory you so strongly dislike remaining resolute because of new evidence.
You will never be able to make me say something different than the above paragraph, because what I have stated is conclusive and reflects the sum knowledge of humankind using science as a process to discover reality. The fact that I have repeated this so many times reveals to me, and to everyone in this forum, just how hollow your debate tactics are. You could have focused on any aspect of my arguments, used any level of scientific discourse to increase your knowledge.

Instead, you repeat the same tired and malformed questions you know that intellectually honest scientists are not comfortable answering to your satisfaction. You malign their honesty and pervert it into a weapon to attack intellectualism.

You have not responded to my challenges, which I will repeat.
Please attempt to explain ERV's using whatever explanatory power you believe your ideas carry. Please try and use uncommon ancestry to explain the diversity of both life and ERV's that utilize the evidence available to us.
Until you can complete the above challenges, Creationism will never be considered a functional theory.

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Post #502

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 498 by Neatras]
conclusive evidence
, based on what? Speculation?
So why would you want to keep pushing speculation at me, to prove that it's speculation?
If it's speculation, it nothing. Nothing can't support anything.

Conclusive evidence is based on facts - like the one that is being shown to you daily, which you prefer to ignore.
An Intelligent mind is responsible for the blueprint of life.

The real issue is whether the theory of evolution is scientific, or not.
And the evidence says, it is not. It has no foundation, or support pillars, other than the speculative ideas.
So trying to support it with one brick, is just adding another imaginary brick, to all the other magical bricks, propping it.

As regards your last comment, it has been acknowledged that the """"intellectuals"""" must be the ones to say what Creationists must do.
Creationists must always be the ones to provide proof.
When it is given, the question returns as though it wasn't heard.
When Creationists asks for evidence to support the theory of evolution, none is given.
The question returns for Creationist to answer.
Well, """"intellectuals"""" are not rulers.

It really doesn't matter to me at all, what others choose to hold on to.
All of us make choices, what we want, and what we do not want.
Who am I to fault anyone for the choice they make?
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I'm done. :D
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #503

Post by H.sapiens »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 498 by Neatras]
conclusive evidence
, based on what? Speculation?
You do not seem to be able to differentiate between multiple and agreeing inferences and speculation. What do you say about gravity or germs?
theStudent wrote: So why would you want to keep pushing speculation at me, to prove that it's speculation?
If it's speculation, it nothing. Nothing can't support anything.
Inference is not speculation, look them up.
theStudent wrote: Conclusive evidence is based on facts - like the one that is being shown to you daily, which you prefer to ignore.
An Intelligent mind is responsible for the blueprint of life.
Your claim is baseless and highly imaginative.
theStudent wrote: The real issue is whether the theory of evolution is scientific, or not.
And the evidence says, it is not. It has no foundation, or support pillars, other than the speculative ideas.
Again we see your inability to discern the difference between inference and speculation.
theStudent wrote: So trying to support it with one brick, is just adding another imaginary brick, to all the other magical bricks, propping it.
Claptrap of the first order.
theStudent wrote: As regards your last comment, it has been acknowledged that the """"intellectuals"""" must be the ones to say what Creationists must do.
Creationists must always be the ones to provide proof.
That task usual falls to the one making the claim, especially when is is an extraordinary claim. It only seems unfair to you because your sense of reasonableness is warped by your presuppositions.
theStudent wrote: When it is given, the question returns as though it wasn't heard.
When Creationists asks for evidence to support the theory of evolution, none is given.
Lots has been given and meaninglessly dismissed by you.
theStudent wrote:
The question returns for Creationist to answer.
Well, """"intellectuals"""" are not rulers.

It really doesn't matter to me at all, what others choose to hold on to.
All of us make choices, what we want, and what we do not want.
Who am I to fault anyone for the choice they make?
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I'm done. :D
Finally.

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Post #504

Post by Neatras »

[Replying to post 499 by theStudent]

You have not responded to my challenges, which I will repeat.

Please attempt to explain ERV's using whatever explanatory power you believe your ideas carry. Please try and use uncommon ancestry to explain the diversity of both life and ERV's that utilize the evidence available to us.

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Post #505

Post by otseng »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 484 by Neatras]

You changed the game.
I actually thought it was named "Dodge Ball".
theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 488 by Neatras]

You seem a bit confused.
:warning: Moderator Final Warning

Do not accuse others of playing dodge ball or being confused.

Please review the Rules.


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Moderator final warnings serve as the last strike towards users. Additional violations will result in a probation vote. Further infractions will lead to banishment. Any challenges or replies to moderator warnings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

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Post #506

Post by arian »

theStudent wrote: Let me exercise my face muscles a bit.

Plantinga, Alvin (11 April 2010). "Evolution, Shibboleths, and Philosophers " Letters to the Editor". The Chronicle of Higher Education. ...I do indeed think that evolution functions as a contemporary shibboleth by which to distinguish the ignorant fundamentalist goats from the informed and scientifically literate sheep.

According to Richard Dawkins, 'It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).'
Daniel Dennett goes Dawkins one (or two) further: 'Anyone today who doubts that the variety of life on this planet was produced by a process of evolution is simply ignorant"inexcusably ignorant.' You wake up in the middle of the night; you think, can that whole Darwinian story really be true? Wham! You are inexcusably ignorant.

I do think that evolution has become a modern idol of the tribe. But of course it doesn't even begin to follow that I think the scientific theory of evolution is false. And I don't.


Image


Does the theory of evolution represent true science at its best?
Note this answer from Christoph Schnborn, Catholic archbishop of Vienna, quoted in The New York Times:
Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.
Is he wrong?
Once again, here it is, in plain view:
Naturalism
In philosophy, naturalism is the "idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world."
Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.
Philosophy and science

Naturalism (philosophy) is any of several philosophical stances wherein all phenomena or hypotheses commonly labeled as supernatural are either false or not inherently different from natural phenomena or hypotheses.
Spiritual naturalism, an approach to spirituality that is devoid of supernaturalism.
Religious naturalism, religious institutions, rituals, doctrines and communities which do not include supernatural beliefs.
The theory of evolution was started by the ideology (I call it scientific religion) called Naturalism, of which Charles Darwin, and his associates were the leaders.
Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by the English naturalist Charles Darwin (1809-1882) and others...

Iris Fry, The Emergence of Life on Earth, 2000, p. 184
...origin of life research consists in looking for a naturalistic alternative to the idea of the creation of life by a designer.
Practical atheism
In practical or pragmatic atheism, also known as apatheism, individuals live as if there are no gods and explain natural phenomena without reference to any deities. The existence of gods is not rejected, but may be designated unnecessary or useless; gods neither provide purpose to life, nor influence everyday life, according to this view. A form of practical atheism with implications for the scientific community is methodological naturalism " the "tacit adoption or assumption of philosophical naturalism within scientific method with or without fully accepting or believing it.
Is it possible to push an agenda in science, and get away with it?
In other words, can scientists cheat, in order to establish an ideology?
[url=file:///C:/Users/John/Downloads/debating/evolutionTheories/Scientific%20method%20-%20RationalWiki.mht]Cheating the scientific method[/url]
Pseudoscientists have discovered an obvious way to 'cheat' the scientific method. It goes like this:
Pick a personal belief that you already 'know' is true, but for which you want 'proof'.
Perform some related observations or experiments, and note the results.
Generate a hypothesis that shoehorns said results into your personal belief.
Falsely claim that your personal belief predicts the particular results, and that the observations/experiment confirmed your suspicions.
This is a blatant perversion of the scientific method, but to someone not versed in science, fallacies, or psychology, it might seem similar enough to be accepted as legitimate.
This manner of cheating has been used by proponents of intelligent design. Note that this isn't limited to pseudoscientists such as those trying to grant legitimacy to intelligent design, but is a mistake frequently made even by "proper" scientists, if they focus too much on finding evidence that supports their hypothesis (their "belief"), instead of focusing on attempting to find evidence that would refute it, or on attempting to find evidence that would refute competing hypotheses.
Which specific aspect of Naturalism did Darwin subscribe to?
Not sure. However,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)
In the 20th century, Willard Van Orman Quine, George Santayana, and other philosophers argued that the success of naturalism in science meant that scientific methods should also be used in philosophy. Science and philosophy are said to form a continuum, according to this view.
Can this work?

[url=file:///C:/Users/John/Downloads/debating/other/What%20is%20the%20Relation%20between%20Science%20and%20Religion%20%20%20Reasonable%20Faith.mht]What is the Relation between Science and Religion[/url] - William Lane Craig
As Thaxton and Pearcey point out in their recent book The Soul of Science, for over 300 years between the rise of modern science in the 1500s and the late 1800s the relationship between science and religion can best be described as an alliance. Up until the late 19th century, scientists were typically Christian believers who saw no conflict between their science and their faith"people like Kepler, Boyle, Maxwell, Faraday, Kelvin, and others. The idea of a warfare between science and religion is a relatively recent invention of the late 19th century, carefully nurtured by secular thinkers who had as their aim the undermining of the cultural dominance of Christianity in the West and its replacement by naturalism " the view that nothing outside nature is real and the only way to discover truth is through science. They were remarkably successful in pushing through their agenda. But philosophers of science during the second half of the 20th century have come to realize that the idea of a warfare between science and theology is a gross oversimplification.

Sometimes you hear slogans like Science deals with facts and religion deals with faith. But this is a gross caricature of both science and religion. As science probes the universe, she encounters problems and questions which are philosophical in character and therefore cannot be resolved scientifically, but which can be illuminated by a theological perspective. By the same token, it is simply false that religion makes no factual claims about the world.
I would say, it could work as it did in the past, but there is an obvious reason why it won't.

A new book of mythology...
Chapter 1 - The beginning of our universe
Once upon a time, billions of years ago - 13.8 billion years ago, to be exact...

Chapter 2 - The beginning of life on earth
Traveling through space on a massive chunk of debris from the exploded star, imbedded deep in its recesses, lay the exact formula that would give life to the mother of all life on the planet below - earth.
Image
I agree about 90% of what you said here, and if you keep this kind of evidence against the One World Order Sci-Fi Religion, you my friend will get banned from here. Do you think they will let 300 years of hard work be destroyed by a, .. a, .. a Student, .. Huh?

I would like to add to this statement:

Up until the late 19th century, scientists were typically Christian believers who saw no conflict between their science and their faith"people like Kepler, Boyle, Maxwell, Faraday, Kelvin, and others. The idea of a warfare between science and religion is a relatively recent invention of the late 19th century, carefully nurtured by secular thinkers who had as their aim the undermining of the cultural dominance of Christianity in the West and its replacement by naturalism " the view that nothing outside nature is real and the only way to discover truth is through science.

This is true with everything that we observe today, and of course I would NOT agree on the view that nothing outside nature is real, .. but I do AGREE that the only way to discover truth is through science.

From scientific observation of the world around me I have discovered "nothing", and "Infinity", which these Pseudo Sci-Fientists have been hiding all these years.

"Infinite" is conscious, as in "I Am".

and

"nothing" is truly as the word describes itself, a no-"thing", that exists between all "things".

Once the sheep have been made to believe that; "nothing is no longer nothing", and that "Infinite is just a concept", heck, after that anything goes, any sci-fi claim can be justified by turning things "Upside Down".
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.

Henry D. Thoreau

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Post #507

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 503 by arian]

Thanks. :)

Yes I know.
It's all documented.

The twentieth century changed everything. You and I both know why.

However, I have my life, and so far it gets what it depends on.
It doesn't depend upon anything else. :)
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #508

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 493 by ttruscott]

You nailed it. Especially in the concluding sentence.
That story was a fitting one too.


Conclusion
It has been established that indeed Charles Darwin and his associates did lie, and it didn't end with him.
The truth did surface eventually.

[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]

We have seen that to this day, the theory of evolution is considered by many, to be scientific - yet the question lingers... Where is the evidence?

[youtube][/youtube]

Well, as was the case with the earlier hoaxes, time will tell.
I like the term this physicist used, and his fitting illustration.

Physicist Richard Feynman

Cargo cult science
In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas"he's the controller"and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land.

We've learned from experience that the truth will come out. Other experimenters will repeat your experiment and find out whether you were wrong or right. Nature's phenomena will agree or they'll disagree with your theory. And, although you may gain some temporary fame and excitement, you will not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you haven't tried to be very careful in this kind of work. And it's this type of integrity, this kind of care not to fool yourself, that is missing to a large extent in much of the research in cargo cult science.
Why would individuals lie..., create an illusion of reality, and present it to the public, if what they were offering were really genuine.
I think these words sums up the answer, quite nicely, and my conclusion.
They focus on obtaining the material wealth (the "cargo") of the advanced culture through magical means, by building landing strips, mock aircraft, mock radios, and the like.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #509

Post by Neatras »

Noting that the theists are now concerned with patting each other on the back rather than addressing my arguments and challenges, I question if this thread is accomplishing anything else.

I urge everyone to review our dialogue and try to compare the evidence presented. One with effective references and an explanation of reality as we see it... and the other being a host of youtube videos desperately decrying evolution and coming up with strawman arguments.

Please, compare this with this. I predict that the Creationists will twist logic and try to assert that anything AiG says is comparative to the evidence I provided.

Meanwhile, my challenges to theStudent remain unanswered. Additionally, every time he gets an opportunity, he asserts that "no evidence exists". I consider this an insult, as it insinuates that my posts do not exist.

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Post #510

Post by benchwarmer »

theStudent wrote:
We have seen that to this day, the theory of evolution is considered by many, to be scientific - yet the question lingers... Where is the evidence?
I find it odd that you accept as 'evidence' an ancient text with conflicting details, but you don't find 'evidence' in actual scientific data that you are welcome to go reproduce yourself.

Here's a link to get you started:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution

I personally found this experiment fascinating as I hadn't stumbled on it before (it's one of the reference links from the above page):

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/15/scien ... l?hpw&_r=0


So, theStudent, if you really are interested and motivated in seeing the evidence and you don't believe the links we keep providing, please feel free to look up, research, and maybe even visit one of these labs doing actual research on evolution. You don't have to take my word for it, you can actually go see the experiments in action or do the experiments yourself. I realize this isn't as simple as just surfing the internet or going to the local museum, but if you are really worried and motivated, it is possible to confirm these things yourself.

And to be crystal clear, I'm talking about biological evolution, the kind described by the scientific theory of evolution. The one that has all kinds of supporting data from various branches of science. The one that has no definitive 'proof', but has plenty of repeatable, verifiable data that fits the theory.

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