What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckel’s many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #451

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 447:

Caps are for emphasis not available to bolds and italics...
theStudent wrote:
JoeyKnothead wrote: The facts have been presented to you. That you demand they be "clear" indicates your inability to understand 'em.

Some things are complicated. Your inability to understand such complicated things are indicative of the simplistic thinking of so many theists.
That's the same thing as saying...
NO!

IF IT WERE THE SAME THING IT'D SAY THE SAME THING!

Again, we're confronted with your inability to either understand, or accept the words put to you.

This is a fault of yours, not ours.
theStudent wrote:
JoeyKnothead wrote: As we see, you clearly can't fathom that life evolves. That's a step too far for anyone who believes their favorite god (of hundreds proposed) just magically poofed everything into existence.

I propose you'd do well to stop expecting folks to present "clear", and start understanding why you can't see just how clearly the facts point to evolution.
Sounds to me as though you prefer that by some magical occurance, nothingness poofed wormlike common ancestor into existence.
IF YOU WILL QUIT INVENTING PEOPLE'S WORDS FOR THEM, PERHAPS THEN, AND ONLY THEN, WILL YOU EVER, EVER, EVER REALIZE that it's your accusations that folks are "liars" that is hampering your ability to understand here.

NEVER IN MY STATEMENT ABOVE DID I PROPOSE YOUR PREPOSTEROUS NOTION!


QUIT BUILDING STRAWMEN AND ADDRESS THE FACTS AS THEY ARE PUT TO YOU!
theStudent wrote: ...
The Bible says God created living things. It does not say he poofed them into existence.
How else can a non-material entity "create", than to poof stuff into existence?
theStudent wrote: Over a period f time, everything created existed, from man, to beast, to insect, to worm, and all plant life.
What is unclear about that? Nothing.
What's "unclear" is how we may ever confirm the biblical claim that a god created anything.

Go ahead, bring your ignorance of evolution to bear on that'n.
theStudent wrote: Maybe you should reverse the entire scenario you just presented.
It might make sense then.
I trust the observer sees quite clearly that you seek to accuse folks of being LIARS simply because YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THEY HAVE TO SAY ABOUT A THEORY YOU SO "CLEARLY" CONSIDER A PACK OF LIES.

I'm all for educating folks, but when they start off declaring stuff "lies", we can't help. We can't help the paranoid, 'cept to encourage 'em to seek proper and certified psychological counseling.

We on this site are simply ill-prepared to educate folks who are adamantly opposed to getting 'em some of it.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Post #452

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 448 by JoeyKnothead]

It seems I don't understand what you are saying.
Could you make it clear so that I will be able to understand?
And provide the facts that I don't understand?

Or is it that I just need to shut up, and listen?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #453

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 449:
theStudent wrote: It seems I don't understand what you are saying.
Without specifics, all I can say is I'm trying to tell you that some things are complicated, and for you to expect "clear" may not ever be possible.
theStudent wrote: Could you make it clear so that I will be able to understand?
I doubt it, considering your various posts within this thread. That said, I've got an eighth grade education, I'd find it quite hard to believe folks can't understand what I have to allow.
theStudent wrote: And provide the facts that I don't understand?
What facts don't you understand?

Be specific.
theStudent wrote: Or is it that I just need to shut up, and listen?
That's for you to say, not me.

But if I was to tell it, I propose your speaking within this thread is "clear" evidence of someone who's religious beliefs not only precludes 'em from trusting folks who've spent their entire careers on this OP, and that misplaced mistrust precludes you from understanding 'em as well.


All that said, I'm not just trying to dump on you, I'm just trying to say that your OP sets out implying folks are liars, then to have you go on and say no "clear" evidence, or no "clear" facts have been presented - well that just may lead folks to think you're either "stupid" (can't possibly be taught), "ignorant" (just don't know this or that), or disingenuous.

Clinical terms there. I must conclude you've got far more smarts than me, and I honestly don't see so much disingenuousness as I do a theist "so set in his ways" that you simply will not be swayed. That's cool, as we can hope or expect others to be informed - either way.

Get educated about the ToE. Get some books and read 'em - but do note that new data is coming in all the time - such that books may be dated before they even print a date on 'em. Get biology dictionaries and read 'em.

But for all that's holy, don't imply folks're liars 'cause you don't understand the issues they present.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Post #454

Post by H.sapiens »

It is quite impossible (and a complete waste of time) to attempt to make anything clear to someone who practices the black art of willful ignorance.

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Post #455

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 450 by JoeyKnothead]
JoeyKnothead wrote:What facts don't you understand?

Be specific.
You are the one who said this. Not me.
JoeyKnothead wrote:QUIT BUILDING STRAWMEN AND ADDRESS THE FACTS AS THEY ARE PUT TO YOU!
How am I to know what facts, you are speaking of?
Unless you make them clear to me.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #456

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 452:
theStudent wrote:
JoeyKnothead wrote: What facts don't you understand?

Be specific.
You are the one who said this. Not me.
JoeyKnothead wrote:
Quit building strawmen and address the facts as they are put to you.
^edit to reduce tone once point was across and record was established<
theStudent wrote: How am I to know what facts, you are speaking of?
Unless you make them clear to me.
Out of all this, after asking you what fact of evolution would you have me carry on about, and the only, the only single one, the absolute only one you have to ask, it's all clear to you how dna works and fossilization timelines and ring species, and theories on color perception in the bonbo, no problem there, and how apey we are, that's the question you ask?

I'm here to tell it folks, I gave it my best, but I can't keep having to replace hammers at this rate.


Image
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Post #457

Post by JoeyKnothead »

H.sapiens wrote: It is quite impossible (and a complete waste of time) to attempt to make anything clear to someone who practices the black art of willful ignorance.
It can be an obvious thing sometimes, willful ignorance.

I've seen where I was told not to swing off a rope into the hooch this one time and tl;dr, broke a couple ribs :drunk:

As an amateur poker player, I'm quite interested in "tells". Not "tales" theists, I wasn't talking to y'all :tongue:

:wave:
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Post #458

Post by theStudent »

Ah...
The usual.

Gather around like bees trying to sting with degrading remarks, in the hope that the person will run away.
If that tactic doesn't work, hope that it makes you look smart... at least. :)
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #459

Post by H.sapiens »

theStudent wrote: Ah...
The usual.

Gather around like bees trying to sting with degrading remarks, in the hope that the person will run away.
If that tactic doesn't work, hope that it makes you look smart... at least. :)
I usually put people like you on ignore rather quickly, it's the most reasonable and humane approach. I have delayed too long ... welcome to my ignore list, I recommend the same approach to all.

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Post #460

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote:I have to remind myself that the material man does not grasp the sayings of the spiritual man, quite readily.
Please evidence this mechanism that spiritual man has but a material man does not.

I was a born again, tongue talking, street evangelizing Christian for 2 decades. I neither had nor lost anything real.
(Yes, like most Christians, I did think I had some special spiritual knowledge, but I came to understand that I believed it to feel special, not because myself or any other Christian that made that claim actually had special knowledge).

IMO, such claims are made so believers can justify virtually any spiritual claim they make.

Non-believer: "That explanation doesn't make sense though".
Believer: "Well, if only you had special spiritual wisdom, then you would believe like me, but you don't have special spiritual wisdom, so I'm right and you're just a sinner".
Non-believer" Aren't Christians great? It's always someone else's fault for not thinking just like them.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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