Why do you believe in Creationism or Evolution?

[emmy27sf]

so why do u believe in evolution or creationism???

[Lucifer]

Well I won't copy and paste your entire response. That is unnecessary.

First of all, what does the expression "bugger all" mean? I'm not familiar with that one.

Second of all, you asked "who is more likely to win? Those with gun powder of those with swords?"

I think the answer to that is plainly clear in history when the western world invaded China (East Asia) and completely stomped them and dominated them. Even with China's great numbers. Before the invasion of the Western World into China... what spectacular inventions did they have? Nothing that would stop the civilization "infected" with Christianity, it seems.

The Roman Empire had been around long before Christians came about - and so did the Roman alphabet that they invented. Christians were just utilizing a system that already existed in their culture when they converted - in the same way that you would speak the same language if you became a Christian instead of going off to learn some more useful language.

I believe in Creationism because it is the truth of the origin of everything. I believe Evolution is true too... but this ape to man, macro evolution is a web of creatively strung lies and deception.

Bugger all, as in insignificant or redundant. I quote because other people might want to know where I do my point-by-point rebuttals.

As for the swords vs gun powder, I've researched a bit on Chinese history, and apparently, science wasn't all that accounted for their loses. Politics had its play in this one, as the Chinese didn't invest too much on the military--they were at peace. You can have a whole lot of high tech weapons, or at least have the knowldege to create them, but if you don't make them or use them, they're good as nothing. I meant logically, in a simulation between swords vs gunpowder, if you had this guy toting a sword charging towards you, you'd shoot him down with gunpowder before he even had a chance to strike.

As for your last paragraph, I would say the opposite seems more possible as Evolution makes more sense than Creationism does. You, however, go on stating that Creationism is a truth without supporting it or giving evidence. What kind of a truth is that? And don't say that sort of truth doesn't need to be supported; otherwise, if it contradicts, it can't be true. Evolution doesn't lie. It's supported, but a handful of people wouldn't like to accept it because they don't understand it. But no, what do they do? They ignore it and continue to deny it, instead of finding out how it really works. But then again, that's your choice.

[Lucifer]

Actually, I'm thinking of the wrong dynasty in China, where it was the Mongols, but if you look at the western influence on China, I don't think that happened until the 1800's. By then, the western civilization would have had guns and such. You can't look at the situation simply; there were other factors that caused China to lose. It's not just religion.

[chrispalasz]

This discussion was in the Santa forum - so I moved it here where it seems more relevent to the topic.

nikolayevich wrote:

Arch wrote:
Even if the prophets of the bible were here today, they wouldn't be eyewitnesses because they never saw god first hand nor did they talk to him directly.

This is not true.

Adam walked and spoke with God (Genesis 3:8 );
Noah spoke with God (Genesis 7:1);
Moses had visitation from God out of the burning bush (Exodus 3:4) and on Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:20);
Aaron was spoken to by God to go and meet Moses (Exodus 4:27);
God called Samuel, who answered 'hear am I' (1 Samuel 3:4);
The word of the Lord came to Nathan (2 Samuel 7:4) and frequently;
God called Joshua and instructed him to bring the children of Israel into the promised land (Jos 1:1-2);
The word of the Lord came to Isaiah (2 Kings 20:4);
The Lord spoke to Job out of a whirlwind (Job 40:6);
The Lord commanded Jeremiah to speak to the people (Jeremiah 26:8 );
The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel (Ezekiel 1:3);
After consulting every self-professed profit and soothsayer in the land, Nebuchadnezzar was troubled, unable to understand his dreams, but after seeking counsel from Daniel who spoke with God, "The king answered Daniel, and said, "Truly your God is the God of gods, the Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, since you could reveal this secret." (Daniel 2:47) All this from an unbeliever;
God spoke with Jonah, telling him to go to Nineveh (Jonah 1:1-2);
Jesus, Son of God, walked, talked and ate with his 12 disciples and many thousands of people (Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, etc...)

These are but a few examples of when prophets and even the ordinary were spoken to by God Himself (not angels)

Arch wrote:
Futhermore, I will even assert that if one of the prophets were here now to speak for themselves no somewhat rational christian , no matter how devout to their doctrines, would believe that they were actually prophets.

I think you are right that most would disbelieve. Most religious people disbelieved Jesus was who He claimed to be, and thus He said, "The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here." (Matthew 12:42)

In essence He says, the greatest of prophets- God Himself has presented His face and yet He is despised beyond earlier men of God.

Mine ramble endeth.

Osiris Dragonfhain wrote:
How can you quote a book that was written and rewritten by man and interpreted in different languages over and over thru the years. There are so many discrepancies in this book called the Bible. Who is to say that this book is what God or Jesus said or wanted people to know. Not a single Christian alive today can prove any part of the Bible. All they have is what their ancestors told them to believe and most were forced growing up to believe. My opinion is that christianity is an excuse to not have to take responsibility for your own actions and life. Christianity is having some one els to blame when things go wrong.
Again this is my opinion.

While the Bible has been rewritten many times, it remains one of the most reliable and complete historical documents in human history. The has so many different perspectives in it and was written by so many people, yet only 1.5% of it is erronous. Also, the errors that ARE in the Bible are stupid LITTLE errors like maybe a number conflict or a tense conflict - nothing big that would go against the consistency or truth of Christian teaching. As for proof, there is so much archealogical evidence that the events of the Bible are true! I can give you website references to some, if you want! There is so much evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it would hold to be true even in the modern court of law. Also, Christians definately take responsibility for our own actions. We all confess to being evil sinners that cannot save ourselves, and we beg and plead for God's merciful forgiveness - which He freely grants through His Son Jesus Christ.

[concerro]

While the Bible has been rewritten many times, it remains one of the most reliable and complete historical documents in human history. The has so many different perspectives in it and was written by so many people, yet only 1.5% of it is erronous. Also, the errors that ARE in the Bible are stupid LITTLE errors like maybe a number conflict or a tense conflict - nothing big that would go against the consistency or truth of Christian teaching. As for proof, there is so much archealogical evidence that the events of the Bible are true! I can give you website references to some, if you want! There is so much evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it would hold to be true even in the modern court of law. Also, Christians definately take responsibility for our own actions. We all confess to being evil sinners that cannot save ourselves, and we beg and plead for God's merciful forgiveness - which He freely grants through His Son Jesus Christ.

Where divinity and perfection are supposed to exist there are no room for errors

[chrispalasz]

Where divinity and perfection are supposed to exist there are no room for errors

In the original manuscripts, there are no errors. That's where divinity and perfection exist, so no big deal there.

But to respond to an implied point that you seem to be making:

1. God's message and plan are still conveyed with perfection in the Bible. There are no contridictions in the overall message and teaching. Everything can be seen clearly, regardless.

2. I suspect there is good reason for God allowing these errors rather than having the original scriptures to be passed along. One reason for this that I suspect is so that nobody can put each and every literal word of God under a microscope and distort His Word. Another reason may also be so that we know that we need to rely on God also and to listen to Him as much as we read the Bible and study it.

[concerro]

Where divinity and perfection are supposed to exist there are no room for errors

In the original manuscripts, there are no errors. That's where divinity and perfection exist, so no big deal there.

How do you know this or better yet how can you prove it if no one has the originals

But to respond to an implied point that you seem to be making:

1. God's message and plan are still conveyed with perfection in the Bible. There are no contridictions in the overall message and teaching. Everything can be seen clearly, regardless.

2. I suspect there is good reason for God allowing these errors rather than having the original scriptures to be passed along. One reason for this that I suspect is so that nobody can put each and every literal word of God under a microscope and distort His Word. Another reason may also be so that we know that we need to rely on God also and to listen to Him as much as we read the Bible and study it.

1. God's message and plan are still not perfectly conveyed becuase if they were there would not be so many denominations of Christianity and we would not be having this conversation right now.

2. It is alot easier to distort a second hand translation of what someone means than it is to distort the actual message.

God does not talk to us in a literal sense so it would be a lot easier to put whatever he wanted us to do in the bible so that we would know exactly what he wanted. Before I left christianity I prayed for a clear answer but I never received one so either your theory about relying on God is incorrect or God(I am assuming he exist) would rather see me bask in my ignorance and tell his faithful why he does not exist.

[chrispalasz]

How do you know this or better yet how can you prove it if no one has the originals

I'll tell you right now that you won't like my answer. So, we won't dwell on this issue, but I'll tell you what the answer is.

We believe there were perfect originals because we know that the Bible is divinely inspired by God. We know the Bible is inspired by God because, through the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus Christ, we know that God exists.

1. God's message and plan are still not perfectly conveyed becuase if they were there would not be so many denominations of Christianity and we would not be having this conversation right now.

God's message and plan is perfectly conveyed. The Bible says there will be divisions and that many will be mislead and that few will choose the narrow gate (that is Christ). This was all explained already... 2000+ years ago.

2. It is alot easier to distort a second hand translation of what someone means than it is to distort the actual message.

I don't agree. But these are just our opinions... and that was just something I suspect may be true, but is not necessarily true.

God does not talk to us in a literal sense so it would be a lot easier to put whatever he wanted us to do in the bible so that we would know exactly what he wanted.

God puts everything that we NEED to know in the Bible. It is not God's will to put EVERYTHING He wants us to do in the Bible. We need to rely on Him and learn to listen to Him so we can "walk" with Him as Adam and Eve did in Eden. God will tell us what He wants us to do day-by-day.

Before I left christianity I prayed for a clear answer but I never received one so either your theory about relying on God is incorrect or God(I am assuming he exist) would rather see me bask in my ignorance and tell his faithful why he does not exist.

James 1:5-7
5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.

God does not always answer our prayers, because our prayers are not always according to His Will. But you recieved an answer, my friend. God is always speaking to His children. It may not have been the clear answer that you were looking for, or wanted, but there was an answer. That answer could have been "be patient" or "I will tell you when the time is due".

You can't jump into Christianity with a hardened heart. Did you ever talk to a Christian about this experience, and ask tell them about this problem, or ask them what to do? Did you ever ask a pastor?

I can tell you that God is always speaking to us. If you can understand that to be the truth, then it's not a matter of "is God going to answer me?" But it's a matter of "what is God saying to me?"

[Lucifer]

I'm sorry if I should ruin this (and I shouldn't), but then if we're not expected to get an answer from God, should he exist, why does it even matter? Why bother praying, if he isn't guaranteed to answer you, or your mind just wants you to believe that God is actually talking to you, when your mind is just wandering off and making something up so you'll be convinced that he exists?

[chrispalasz]

I'm sorry if I should ruin this (and I shouldn't), but then if we're not expected to get an answer from God, should he exist, why does it even matter? Why bother praying, if he isn't guaranteed to answer you, or your mind just wants you to believe that God is actually talking to you, when your mind is just wandering off and making something up so you'll be convinced that he exists?

Explaining the purpose of prayer to a non-believer is a very cumbersome task. So... I can tell you that I have already covered it in the "A true Christian is needed" web thread below.

http://www.debatingchristianity.com/for ... =7611#7611

If you have any more specific questions regarding, please post them.

[Lucifer]

Well, thanks for showing me, but I think I'd rather find the answers myself. Afterall, the only person I can trust is myself. I suppose prayer can give guidance in that it is moralistic and it makes you feel better or more confident, but not all people need that feeling to be motivated. I also suppose good things happen to people who pray because it gives them motivation.