Another Abortion Thread

[keltzkroz]

Hi everyone! This topic came up in the Abortion/parental fairness thread. We have gone off topic so I'm starting this one.

The question seems to be pretty simple, or perhaps not so simple. IF the fetus is a person, is abortion ok?

[McCulloch]

The question seems to be pretty simple, or perhaps not so simple. IF the fetus is a person, is abortion ok?

Yes, it's okay. The fetus is not yet a functioning, interacting member of society in the way that a born infant, child, teen, or adult is. I believe it is irresponsible to bring a child into the world when you are not willing or financially/emotionally capable of doing so. Every child *should* be wanted.

By that logic, an unwanted child who has been born but is not yet a functioning, interacting member of society could ethically be killed.

The legal and ethical question is then when does a human life become a person which is outside the scope of this debate question.

[Vianne]

The question seems to be pretty simple, or perhaps not so simple. IF the fetus is a person, is abortion ok?

Yes, it's okay. The fetus is not yet a functioning, interacting member of society in the way that a born infant, child, teen, or adult is. I believe it is irresponsible to bring a child into the world when you are not willing or financially/emotionally capable of doing so. Every child *should* be wanted.

By that logic, an unwanted child who has been born but is not yet a functioning, interacting member of society could ethically be killed.

The legal and ethical question is then when does a human life become a person which is outside the scope of this debate question.

Tell any new parent that a newborn doesn't interact, and they will mightily disagree. By "interacting" I refer to any give-and-take with society, which includes crying for food, comfort, love, any of the above, and being quieted when the desired commodity is provided. Yes, a newborn is quite functional! You may be correlating functional with independent, however, which is not what I was implying.

You're correct, however, in that there is a deeper question at stake which is outside the scope of this question. My personal belief is that it's less a question of when the fetus becomes a person, and more of a question of when does the aborting act causes the fetus undue pain.

I say this because I was an unintended pregnancy myself, and I can completely understand that my mother once debated aborting me. Her life circumstances were far from being ready to undertake childrearing. Now, of course, I am glad that she chose adoption instead, but had she chosen otherwise, I never would have known the difference. I cannot say I feel any resentment toward her. Had she chosen to end her pregnancy, I could only ask that she do so early on, before my body was developed enough to fully experience pain. And yes, I was a person then, too. Life is beautiful and powerful, but it is just that -- life.

All of which are just my completely controversial opinions, of course.

[Guy Smiley]

Nope. (A) I have a right that people not use my kidneys, but also, (B) a person has a right to live. So if (A) and (B) are in conflict, well then you have to make a judgment call.

Since in a pregnancy, this "person" is using my kidneys only as a direct consequence of something I did, I think (B) wins.

And yet, not everyone did it willingly. Should the rapist make the decision as to the welfare of the unborn child he fathered in the woman he raped? After all, it resulted as a direct consequence of something he did, right?

Wow old post! Anyway, no. I don't think that follows at all from what I said. I basically said that if you make your bed, you have to sleep in it.

Now I'm trying not to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that it's ok to kill people if it doesn't cause them undue pain?

[Vianne]

Nope. (A) I have a right that people not use my kidneys, but also, (B) a person has a right to live. So if (A) and (B) are in conflict, well then you have to make a judgment call.

Since in a pregnancy, this "person" is using my kidneys only as a direct consequence of something I did, I think (B) wins.

And yet, not everyone did it willingly. Should the rapist make the decision as to the welfare of the unborn child he fathered in the woman he raped? After all, it resulted as a direct consequence of something he did, right?

Wow old post! Anyway, no. I don't think that follows at all from what I said. I basically said that if you make your bed, you have to sleep in it.

Now I'm trying not to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that it's ok to kill people if it doesn't cause them undue pain?

While I think we both agree that people should not approach sex irresponsibly, I don't think bringing a child into the world should ever be done with an attitude of punishment toward the parent. Childbearing should be done for its own sake.

No, I am not saying it's okay to kill people if it does not cause people undue pain, and I think you understand that.

I do think that we're coming from two different perspectives: you may believe that ending a life in any circumstance is by definition violent, while I believe that there are instances where ending a life -- or preventing one -- is by far the kindest option.

This is where the ultimate division is between pro-lifers and pro-choicers, and it can't be changed by arguing the petty details.

[Guy Smiley]

No, I am not saying it's okay to kill people if it does not cause people undue pain, and I think you understand that.

Hehe, no I don't, and I wasn't being a smart aleck. I am honestly having trouble following you. People on these boards say things crazier than that .

I believe you're saying that it's moral for a mother to kill the fetus if the mother doesn't want the baby? Am I right?

Err, remember the hypothetical premise of this thread, that the fetus is a living human being...

[Vianne]

I believe you're saying that it's moral for a mother to kill the fetus if the mother doesn't want the baby?

Yes, but bear in mind I'm not advocating making the decision to abort on a whim, without careful consideration.

I do believe there are circumstances when ending a pregnancy is the most responsible and humane option, however.

[jesse]

The question seems to be pretty simple, or perhaps not so simple. IF the fetus is a person, is abortion ok?[/quote]

According to the bible, abortion is permissable only when the woman has gotten pregnant when she is a victim of rape,or when the unborn baby is already doomed to lifelong illneses from birth.SHould a woman abort mindlessly would result in sin.However, i feel that if the caretakers for the child cannot afford the cost of his crib, his education, or just the needs of this baby, then an abortion should be permissable.