An irreverent response

[Zzyzx]

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From somewhere on the web, an irreverent (and sometimes appropriate) response to uninvited, unwelcome

I'll pray for you

I'll think for you

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

How is prayer thinking for someone? It is laying our requests and thanksgiving before the Lord. I pray because personally, I am thankful for you!

Hugs!

As well intention-ed as I believe your prayers are, they are selfish IMO.

You see, praying for Z for example would allow you to feel like you did something without having actually done anything. (Due to praying having been shown to be ineffective).

So, if prayer is just self serving and useless, if you are going to offer to pray for a person, they might as well argue that they will then think on your behalf.

Person A: You're hungry? I'll pray for you.
Hungry person: Gee, thanks. Let me think for you so next time you might consider providing me with a meal.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

How is prayer thinking for someone? It is laying our requests and thanksgiving before the Lord. I pray because personally, I am thankful for you!

Hugs!

As well intention-ed as I believe your prayers are, they are selfish IMO.

You see, praying for Z for example would allow you to feel like you did something without having actually done anything. (Due to praying having been shown to be ineffective).

Hello Mr. Clownboat!!! I am always happy to respond to your posts

I challenge the claim that prayer is ineffective. This is mainly because there can be many facets to prayer. Is it ineffective if people don't get what they want? I have seen people pray for one thing, and they ended up not getting that specific thing, only to be surprised with something much better. I have seen God working in my life through prayer. Not to long ago, I had severe abdominal pain and had to go to the hospital. I didn't call my church, or let anyone know other than my immediate family. A man that attends our church, called my pastor and asked if I was okay, because he had visions of me doubled over in pain, and felt he needed to pray. If God seeks us out to pray, then how can that be ineffective?

So, if prayer is just self serving and useless, if you are going to offer to pray for a person, they might as well argue that they will then think on your behalf.

Person A: You're hungry? I'll pray for you.
Hungry person: Gee, thanks. Let me think for you so next time you might consider providing me with a meal.

You do know that this very scenario is addressed in the Bible? James 2:15-"Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, "Go in peace;keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?"

Prayer isn't a substitute for action. It is our hearts poured out to our God, for the benefit of His people.

Have a most wonderful day!

Hugs!!

[Goat]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

How is prayer thinking for someone? It is laying our requests and thanksgiving before the Lord. I pray because personally, I am thankful for you!

Hugs!

As well intention-ed as I believe your prayers are, they are selfish IMO.

You see, praying for Z for example would allow you to feel like you did something without having actually done anything. (Due to praying having been shown to be ineffective).

Hello Mr. Clownboat!!! I am always happy to respond to your posts

I challenge the claim that prayer is ineffective. This is mainly because there can be many facets to prayer. Is it ineffective if people don't get what they want? I have seen people pray for one thing, and they ended up not getting that specific thing, only to be surprised with something much better. I have seen God working in my life through prayer. Not to long ago, I had severe abdominal pain and had to go to the hospital. I didn't call my church, or let anyone know other than my immediate family. A man that attends our church, called my pastor and asked if I was okay, because he had visions of me doubled over in pain, and felt he needed to pray. If God seeks us out to pray, then how can that be ineffective?

So, if prayer is just self serving and useless, if you are going to offer to pray for a person, they might as well argue that they will then think on your behalf.

Person A: You're hungry? I'll pray for you.
Hungry person: Gee, thanks. Let me think for you so next time you might consider providing me with a meal.

You do know that this very scenario is addressed in the Bible? James 2:15-"Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, "Go in peace;keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?"

Prayer isn't a substitute for action. It is our hearts poured out to our God, for the benefit of His people.

Have a most wonderful day!

Hugs!!

I challenge you to show that what happened was the result of prayer, rather than people actual actions, or just happenstance.

Also, there is something known as 'confirmation bias'. You see and remember those things that confirm what you are looking for, and forget those things that don't fit the preconceived patterns.

[bluethread]

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From somewhere on the web, an irreverent (and sometimes appropriate) response to uninvited, unwelcome

I'll pray for you

I'll think for you

The analogy doesn't fit, because it presumes that the prayer does not believe in thinking. A better analogy is the vicarious donations as gifts. In other words, you receive a card that says that a donation has been made to the KIND, our some other charity you may not believe in, in your name. Even better is the census worker who assures you that they are going to fill out the form anyway, even when you refuse to provide your information. One might say, "I'll file a form for you." or "I'll make an appeal for you."

[Zzyzx]

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I challenge the claim that prayer is ineffective.

Feel free to cite credible, verifiable evidence to show that prayer is effective.

Personal anecdotes and opinions are far from convincing to many or most readers. Actual studies have shown that prayer is no more effective than chance alone and/or the placebo effect.

This is mainly because there can be many facets to prayer. Is it ineffective if people don't get what they want?

That would certainly be some indication. If prayers for an ill person to recover and the person dies the prayers weren't answered. Right?

Saying that "God had a different plan" does not address prayers not being answered.

I have seen people pray for one thing, and they ended up not getting that specific thing, only to be surprised with something much better.

That is an example of the prayed for result was NOT achieved. If something else occurred that is immaterial.

I have seen God working in my life through prayer. Not to long ago, I had severe abdominal pain and had to go to the hospital. I didn't call my church, or let anyone know other than my immediate family. A man that attends our church, called my pastor and asked if I was okay, because he had visions of me doubled over in pain, and felt he needed to pray. If God seeks us out to pray, then how can that be ineffective?

How does that relate to prayers being answered?

Prayer isn't a substitute for action. It is our hearts poured out to our God, for the benefit of His people.

However, action IS a substitute for prayer -- and can be shown to produce results.

[OnceConvinced]

I challenge the claim that prayer is ineffective.

I wonder how we could go about proving that.

I was inspired by a recent episode of the Simpsons. The kids at school had to build their own go-cart and power it by using alternate fuel sources. So all the kids lined up on the starter line and the gun was fired. All the cars left the starter line immediately. All but one. It was the car driven by Rod and Todd Flanders which was being fueled by the power of prayer.

What was so hilarious about this scene was that even Christians would never be deluded enough to believe that you could have a prayer powered car. But yet they talk about the power of prayer and how powerful and effective it is!

I'm betting you that if you line up cars at a starter line and one of them was using the power of prayer, it wouldn't even leave the starting block. And when we said "See? That proves prayer doesn't work", you will say "God doesn't work that way" or "That's testing God!"

But you want us to prove that prayer is ineffective. So how can we prove prayer is ineffective if God won't even allow himself to be tested? You could just use the excuse that God won't be tested. So where would be be?

Really the only way to prove prayer works is to go back in time, take over own body and do exactly the same thing again, this time without praying. Even then we would still have to take into consideration the placebo effect.

Seriously though, if we were to test the inefficiency or efficiency of prayer we would need some acceptable system to do it. Can you suggest one where God won't accuse us of testing him?

I wrote this about testing God:

God Never Fails

[H.sapiens]

Hello Mr. Clownboat!!! I am always happy to respond to your posts

I challenge the claim that prayer is ineffective. This is mainly because there can be many facets to prayer. Is it ineffective if people don't get what they want? I have seen people pray for one thing, and they ended up not getting that specific thing, only to be surprised with something much better. I have seen God working in my life through prayer. Not to long ago, I had severe abdominal pain and had to go to the hospital. I didn't call my church, or let anyone know other than my immediate family. A man that attends our church, called my pastor and asked if I was okay, because he had visions of me doubled over in pain, and felt he needed to pray. If God seeks us out to pray, then how can that be ineffective?

First of all: It is quite impossible to prove a negative, so your challenge is ridiculous. Even if I were to prove to you that no prayer has ever been answered, that does not prove that no prayer ever will be.

Second: You're going to have us believe that your god watches over you so closely that he send visions to your friends and causes them to want to pray for you when you have a pain? Would it not be much easier on your god to either assure that you do not have the pain in the first place, or to just fix your pain without involving anyone else? I mean really, I can just see your god, "Oh boy, I'm gonna give her a pain so that she goes to the the hospital and, while I'm at it, I'm gonna send a vision to her bud that she's hurtin' so that he will call the preacher and they'll organize a prayer session so that I may slake my unquenchable thirst for more worship." Yeah, makes great sense.

Even if your tale were true, which logic causes me to doubt, you fail to make a connection with the efficacy or prayer ... that is just another of your presuppositional leaps of faith.