What does that tell us?

[Zzyzx]

.
In a current thread Bust Nac wisely observed:

That someone believes in a god or gods doesn't tell me anything about their moral system.

Let's expand that to "doesn't tell anything about the person" (other than identify them as a believer).

Further, learning that a person does not believe in gods says nothing else about the person (or their morals) -- other than identifying them as a non-believer.

It seems as though debaters often make many assumptions about those "on the other side of the theistic aisle" -- as though theistic position imparted various personal characteristics.

Big mistake.

[OnceConvinced]

I think is comes as a result of people trying to turn atheism into a religion. It seems many Christians so adamantly want to make out Atheism is a religion so they try to add a whole lot of baggage to the definition of it. However that is folly.

















<== People will note that I have "Non-stamp-collecting" as one of my user groups. That tells people only one thing and that its that I don't collect stamps. It does not imply anything else at all. You cannot tell anything about my philosophies on life, my values, my beliefs, my habits, my morals, my desires etc from that title, only that I don't collect stamps.

It is EXACTLY the same with the usergroup "atheist". Nothing else can be determined by that moniker except that I don't believe in gods. It's not meant to give any more information than that. It does not define my philosophies, values, beliefs, habits, morals, desires etc. One may be able to presume a lot about me because I am atheist, but they would just be presumptions and possibly incorrect. The term alone does not automatically imply anything other than I don't believe in gods.

[Divine Insight]

Big mistake.

But this proclamation isn't being made up by the theist. It is an integral part of the dogma they worship as the "Word of God".

So when you tell a theist that this is as "Big Mistake" you are telling them that their Holy Scriptures are a "Big Mistake".

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

This is repeated again later in Psalms 53 verbatim.

This is also regurgitated by Paul in Romans 3

So this is stated in the Old Testament (i.e. "Gods Word") as being the truth as revealed by God. And then reinforced in the Christian New Testament by Paul to verify that this proclamation by God has not been a "Big Mistake" at all but rather has been confirmed by Paul to be a validated position that even his Holy Inspired words confirm as TRUTH.

Paul even elaborates on this with more descriptive "Holy Inspired Words":


He rants on about the immorality of non-believers for several chapters but here's an except of some of the things he says about atheists (or non-believers)

Romans 1:
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, *debate , deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

*notice that to even "debate" against these ideals is considered to be among these terrible behaviors. So if you are debating against Chrsitianity you are already doing the things Paul proclaimed that you would do, thus revealing the truth and accuracy of his claims. (or at least this is what a theist would claim)

This judgement against atheists is not something that Christians arbitrarily made up. This is part and parcel to their religion. This comes straight from their dogma, which they hold up as being the "Word of God".

If the Psalms and Paul both claim that atheists are evil-doers who are without understanding and who are worthy of death, then it must be true because surely the Psalms and Paul are not "Big Mistakes".

They reveal the inspired Word of God to all those who are full of understanding of the Holy Spirit.

Those evil atheists are so full of themselves, and without understanding that they cannot see this TRUTH, and this is all because of their evil backbiting attitude, and boastful ways. God has "given them over to a reprobate mind", and because of this they can no longer even see the disgusting evil nature of their ways. They are not only worthy of death, but they have been blinded by God with a *reprobate mind from ever seeing the truth of "God's Love" that they have so selfishly rejected.

*Reprobate - a sinner who is not of the elect and is predestined to damnation.

Ask Ted (i.e. ttruscott) he'll tell you all about the elect and the non-elect and how that all fits into "God's Plan".

So when you tell a theist that this is a "Big Mistake" what you are actually telling them is that the the Bible is a "Big Mistake".

Of course, I'm sure you know I fully agree with you.

But I'm just pointing out that the Christians aren't arbitrarily making this accusation against atheists up. This is being demanded by their "Holy Dogma". And Paul is specifically adamant about this in great detail as I have illustrated above from just one small excerpt of the type of rants he goes on about how "reprobate" non-believers are.

God has "given them over to reprobate mind".

In other words, according to Paul, those who believe there is no God have already chosen to be among the damned. The non-elect.

And just as a final Biblical point that a Christian might pull out to reinforce the TRUTH of God's word, here it is from John (supposedly quoting Jesus):

John 3:
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned:but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Note the underlined part of verse 18. Those who refuse to believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Therefore they have "chosen" to be among the non-elect, and are therefore given over to reprobate mind by God. God honors their "Free Will Choice" to reject him and allows them to wallow in the blindness of their selfish arrogance.

That's what a Christian Fundamentalist believes for sure. And this is basically what all Christians believe to a large degree.

Where many progressive Christians might give some leeway is that they don't accept that the atheists are not "savable". In other words, they believe that their "blindness" can be lifted and they can yet be converted back over to become among the "elect" if they would only choose by Free Will Choice to bow down at the feet of Jesus and kiss his feet and worship him as LORD AND MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE!

Then their blindness will be lifted and they will be "saved" from their own arrogance and ignorance.

That's the idea and this is how "God's LOVE" works.

Isn't God just WONDERFUL!

He's even willing to "save" those hateful boasting undeserving backbiting atheists.

Those horrible atheists who proclaim that "God's Word" is a "Big Mistake"!

According to the theists it's the atheists who are making the "Big Mistake".

That how the brainwashing of this religious cult works.

Its right there in the dogma. It's not something the victims of this religious cult made up. It's what they have been taught to believe by the cult itself.

[tam]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I don't think there is anything to add to the OP except to agree that it is a mistake to make assumptions about people based upon their belief (or non-belief). It is a mistake to assume an atheist is immoral, or 'worse than' a theist... because the opposite is often shown to be true.

Belief or claim to belief does not necessarily show what is in a person. Words and deeds on the other hand...


It is also a mistake to assume that theists - including Christians - must believe as DI wrote above, or that they even understand those verses as DI explained them above. I will concede that too many DO think and believe like that, however unfortunately. But I certainly do not; I am not alone in this; and I am listening to God's Word -> Christ.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Masamune]

Well, there is nothing that says that Christians are automatically moral. I can't imagine most Christians claiming otherwise. Christianity acknowledges that all humans are fundamentally flawed.

[Divine Insight]

I am listening to God's Word -> Christ.

Do you realize that you are basically in competition with prophets like Paul?

Paul claims to have gotten his words from "Christ" too.

So who's telling us the TRUTH?

Paul or Tam?

Evidently we better get this right lest we potentially be condemned to everlasting punishment for having believed the wrong "Prophet".

By the way, do you even realize that if you claim to "Speak for Christ" even over the claims of Paul, and King David, then you are necessarily claiming to be a "Prophet" too?

Also, by dismissing the claims of people like Paul and the author of Psalms, King David, you are basically suggesting that those authors were necessarily false prophets, since they apparently got it all wrong.

Sounds like we better toss out our Bibles and rush over to Tam's house to find out what's really going on.

[tam]

I am listening to God's Word -> Christ.

Do you realize that you are basically in competition with prophets like Paul?

No.

Paul claims to have gotten his words from "Christ" too.

He makes that claim for some yes, but for others no.

So who's telling us the TRUTH?

Paul or Tam?

Christ.

Evidently we better get this right lest we potentially be condemned to everlasting punishment for having believed the wrong "Prophet".

If you believe me or Paul or anyone over Christ, then you are listening to the wrong person.

(not that I am agreeing with your 'everlasting punishment' scenario for believing the wrong person... as it would also depend upon what one DOES)

By the way, do you even realize that if you claim to "Speak for Christ" even over the claims of Paul, and King David, then you are necessarily claiming to be a "Prophet" too?

I don't claim to speak for Christ. I do claim to listen to Him.

Also, by dismissing the claims of people like Paul and the author of Psalms, King David, you are basically suggesting that those authors were necessarily false prophets, since they apparently got it all wrong.

I did not dismiss any of them. Certainly not just because I don't accept yours (or others') interpretation.

Sounds like we better toss out our Bibles and rush over to Tam's house to find out what's really going on.

[/quote]

Is the alternative that we should believe your interpretation instead?


The quote from Paul that you listed, from Romans, states in what you colored blue, they did not RETAIN knowledge. Meaning they had knowledge at one point of God, but did not remain in that knowledge.

If you tie that in to the quote from Psalms, as you did, then this is speaking of those who say in their heart, there is no God, so as to justify or continue doing despicable things.

In my understanding, this is referring often (if not most often) to people in religion, passing themselves off as believing in God, perhaps even just lying to themselves. Because there is no way some religious people can actually believe in God - a God that is watching them and that they will have to answer to - while still being able do some of the despicable things that they do.


Which is why they say in their HEART (not out loud) that there is no God. Because they do not believe that God is there, watching, seeing, caring.

This is corroborated in Ezekiel, when that prophet was shown despicable things that the leaders, priests, elders of Israel were doing in the temple. God said this to him:

He said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, 'The LORD does not see us; the LORD has forsaken the land.'"


THAT is the 'fool saying in his heart, there is no God.'


Now, as far as I know, most atheists (unless they are in hiding because of a fear of loss of family/friends... or unless they are pretending for the sake of what it might gain them, such as politicians seeking votes, and/or people who make their living off of 'preaching', etc), will state so out loud. Might some of those be like the 'fool who says in his heart? Sure, I suppose, but that would be between them and God.

So the quotes are specific to those who want to do wrong, etc... and so they say in their heart that there is no God. No one watching, no one caring, no one to answer TO. Even though they should know better.



The first quote from Psalms actually goes on to talk about this of all mankind... at a time when most of mankind would not have been atheists, but rather religious people in some form or another. In fact, I personally doubt there were all that many atheists that Paul was contending with during his day either. I don't recall seeing that many arguments between Christ and atheists about the existence of non-existence of God either.

But he did have some choice words for religious leaders and their hypocrisy; and 'appearance' of righteousness, while inwardly being filled with dead men's bones.



So you see, I have a different understanding of these verses as some others have of them. That does not mean that I am in some competition with those who wrote them.

(with those who later copied them and perhaps copied errors into them, making them harder to understand, perhaps - false stylus of the scribes and all that: Jeremiah 8:8)


But there are good atheists out there and there are certainly bad theists out there; and vice versa. Christ also said that those who did good to even the least of his brothers have done good to Him, and these ones too are invited into the Kingdom. (parable of the sheep and the goats) And these ones are not Christian - they are people of the nations who had done good to Christ by doing good to even the least of His brothers (not knowingly for gain, but because the law of love is upon their hearts naturally, and they act accordingly. Paul speaks of this when he speaks of gentiles doing by nature the requirements of the law, so that they are a law unto themselves. So that it is NOT the claim of theism or atheism that reveals what is in a person, bringing us back to the OP; but rather words and deeds.)



Peace to you DI,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

I don't claim to speak for Christ. I do claim to listen to Him.

Well, if you claim to listen to him above and beyond the Biblical scriptures that are written about him, then you are indeed proclaiming to have a prophetic supernatural connection with this supposed supernatural demigod.

As far as I'm concerned that is claiming to be a "prophet".

I don't make that claim. Therefore it would be impossible for me to "listen" to this supernatural demigod that you claim to be listening to.

[JJ50]

There seems no point in a religion unless it makes you a better person. There are some decent religious people around, but they tend to be the moderates. The fundamentalists are frequently unpleasant and bigoted, using the not so good book to support their nastiness!