What if animals are found to be "self aware"?

[QED]

I detect a significant resistance among many Christians to the idea that animals might be intelligent to the degree of having "self-awareness". I'm not entirely sure I understand the reasons for this, but it is a recurrent theme, so it might be useful if someone could offer me an explanation.

The question for debate is therefore what consequence(s) if any would there be for Christianity if animals are indeed found to be self-aware and capable of ethical thinking. I have no objections if the debate also enters into the question of whether or not evidence already exists for this.

I would like to note that with better technology and continual investigation and learning the potential for such a discovery is always present. For example, many African Elephants are now tracked in the wild by GPS telemetry. This means that an accurate history of their movements is available to researchers. A recent report by the BBC news service recently covered an event where a matriarch Elephant died and "news" got round over a wide area such that many Elephants travelled a significant distance to visit the deceased. Both the communication and concern displayed adds to existing knowledge about the complex behaviour of Elephants. In an interview a researcher also mentioned that they were beginning to see Elephants removing the tusks of deceased relatives in a way that suggested they were trying to outwit poachers.

While looking for an online link to the story (which sadly I cannot seem to find) I found this video of Elephant paintings. This BBC webpage links to the video with the following image:

[Sleepy]

I have no idea how you can sustain that the 'beast' - part of the network of the antichrist and satan - qualifies in the same category as the 'animals'.

I do not think this particular scripture is relevant at all.

[Bugmaster]

Personally, I don't think animals are self-aware, because they don't act as though they are. In other words, they cannot pass the Turing Test.

Of course, this leads to a question: is it possible for an entity to be self-aware in a non-human way ? I don't know, and I don't know how we would even find out :-(

[Goat]

Personally, I don't think animals are self-aware, because they don't act as though they are. In other words, they cannot pass the Turing Test.

Of course, this leads to a question: is it possible for an entity to be self-aware in a non-human way ? I don't know, and I don't know how we would even find out

That is a rather humancentric way of looking at things. It also is invalid, since the turing test is specificlaly designed for a machine mimicing human behavior.

[Bugmaster]

That is a rather humancentric way of looking at things.

Well, yeah, that's my point. I don't know of any other (i.e., non-human) way of looking at things.

It also is invalid, since the turing test is specificlaly designed for a machine mimicing human behavior.

I see no reason why the test couldn't work for animals, aliens, and whatever else we come across. The central idea is still the same.

[Goat]

That is a rather humancentric way of looking at things.

Well, yeah, that's my point. I don't know of any other (i.e., non-human) way of looking at things.

It also is invalid, since the turing test is specificlaly designed for a machine mimicing human behavior.

I see no reason why the test couldn't work for animals, aliens, and whatever else we come across. The central idea is still the same.

To measure self awareness, there is also problem solving ability, and the ability to communicate with other members of their own species.

For example, on classic test on dolphins is to have them push a specific button to get a fish. You have two dophins in interconnecting tanks being taught this. After a time, if you have one dolphin go first, and give the second dolphin the exact same button to push, the second dolphin will push the correct button to get the fish even before the button to push is lit. This indicates that the two dolphins were telling each other which button to push to get the fish. That indicates commuication between the two dolphins.

[Bugmaster]

This indicates that the two dolphins were telling each other which button to push to get the fish. That indicates commuication between the two dolphins.

This could go either way, though. On the one hand, ants communicate as well as dolphins do, if not better, but that doesn't necessarily make them self-aware. On the other hand, computers are good at solving problems (even problems they have not explicitly faced before, in the case of adaptive algorithms), and they're way better at comminicating than any animal. That doesn't necessarily make them self-aware, either.

Basically, is problem-solving and communication a sufficient condition for self-awareness ? If so, how much problem-solving ability must an animal have before we deem it self-aware ?

[Goat]

This indicates that the two dolphins were telling each other which button to push to get the fish. That indicates commuication between the two dolphins.

This could go either way, though. On the one hand, ants communicate as well as dolphins do, if not better, but that doesn't necessarily make them self-aware. On the other hand, computers are good at solving problems (even problems they have not explicitly faced before, in the case of adaptive algorithms), and they're way better at comminicating than any animal. That doesn't necessarily make them self-aware, either.

Basically, is problem-solving and communication a sufficient condition for self-awareness ? If so, how much problem-solving ability must an animal have before we deem it self-aware ?

Computers are good at following algorthems over and over again. They are not good as solving brand new problems. If a computer gets an unique problem to solve, it can't 'figure out' how to solve it.

And the order of intelligence for dophins to talk about the solution of a problem is certainly of a much higher level than ants can accomplish. The ant communication is at a very very primative level. Both ants and bees basically can communicate distance and direction to food sources.

[Bugmaster]

Computers are good at following algorthems over and over again. They are not good as solving brand new problems. If a computer gets an unique problem to solve, it can't 'figure out' how to solve it.

It seems that all we need to do is write an algorithm for "figuring out" how to solve problems, and we're all set. In fact, many such algorithms do already exist; for example, any semi-decent modern computer game will adapt to your strategy and strive to defeat you, even if you act unpredictably. Additionally, I'm not convinced that untrained dolphins could figure out how to push the fish-launching button without a lot of trial and error, either.

Actually, this might make for a good experiment. Put a hungry dolphin in a tank, with some fish stuck tantalizingly close behind a glass barrier. Create a simple logic puzzle that would raise the barrier -- say, a block-flipping puzzle a la Soul Reaver, or a simple math problem (3+4=?), or something to that extent. If the dolphin can raise the barrier without randomly trying combinations until something works, then I'll accept that the dolphin can solve problems... which still doesn't necessarily tell me that it's self-aware.

Both ants and bees basically can communicate distance and direction to food sources.

Not quite. Ants, and especially bees, can communicate quite a bit through their chemical signals. Danger, food, population of fellow insects, even weather... Communication is what these hive insects are all about, otherwise they'd all be spider food.

[Cathar1950]

I was watching a program on Discovery or NGC about dolphins.
Well they had put a mark on them that they could see in a mirror and they knew they were looking at themselves and had realized they had a goofy mark.

[QED]

Bugmaster - Dogs display jealousy, doesn't that indicate self awareness?