Isaac and Abraham

[Dilettante]

The terrible dilemma of Abraham has haunted countless thinkers in history, the most famous of them being probably Danish philosopher Sören Kierkegaard. But I bet everyone--that is, except those who never had a belief in the Abrahamic God--has wondered how he or she would act in a situation where God tells you to kill an innocent, perhaps your only child. This is perhaps the most difficult question for believers. I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham (and please remember Abraham didn't know it was just a test) and that anyone who killed his own son today and told the police he had just followed God's orders would rightly be put in a mental institution for life.
I, for one, could not kill an innocent person (let alone one of my children) even if God told me to. What about the rest of forum members?

[mujahid263]

2. That is the point, how woould you KNOW 100% that it was a message from god?

The same way Abarham know. God gave him faith that it really was God. If God had ordered me to do this then God would give me this sort of faith to accept it really is God and not just too much weed.

Was not Mohammad (pbuh) visited by such a creature who claimed to be bringing god's message?

Muhemmed(saw) was allegedly visited by angel Gabriel if I recall correctly.

As for Satan, in Islam Satan says he was made of fire, so he is in Islam a jinn. Because angels in Islam do not have free will and hence can not disobey Allah(swt)

[mujahid263]

2. That is the point, how woould you KNOW 100% that it was a message from god?

The same way Abarham know. God gave him faith that it really was God. If God had ordered me to do this then God would give me this sort of faith to accept it really is God and not just too much weed.

Was not Mohammad (pbuh) visited by such a creature who claimed to be bringing god's message?

Muhemmed(saw) was allegedly visited by angel Gabriel if I recall correctly.

As for Satan, in Islam Satan says he was made of fire, so he is in Islam a jinn. Because angels in Islam do not have free will and hence can not disobey Allah(swt)

[Dilettante]

PRH wrote:

The whole point of Abram and Isaac is what Abraham believed about God was based on what he already knew about him through a life of faith.

As I see it, the point of the story of Isaac and Abraham is twofold: first, that there are no universal ethical norms, but that whether an act is ethical or not is something God decides arbitrarily; and second, that the best kind of faith is absolute blind faith, the kind of faith Tertullian was recommending when he said "I believe because it is absurd". Now those are two points I find it hard not to disagree with. How can we accept that God could in principle take the most basic ethical principle (that which says we must not take the life of an innocent) and stand it on its head, particularly if we are told that God is good? Didn't that contradict what Abraham knew about God from past experience? And how can we accept that it might be a good thing, in fact the most excellent thing, to believe an absurdity?

mujahid 263 wrote:

Well, according to my faith all children go to heaven if they die.

That makes sense. I think the vast majority of Christians would agree. As for infants, it's the same: people no longer believe in "limbo". I have, however, encountered a few people who insist that children must have the "right beliefs" in order to enter heaven. But those people are probably not representative of mainstream Christianity.

[seen da light]

Firstly , this was a test of faith.
You are never tested beyond what you can handle.

Secondly,In this situation If you ever get to the point where you actually are going to kill someone, if God doesn't tell you to stop, then you are sinning. And then you have to wonder if it was god who told you to kill in the first place.

[Vianne]

I, for one, could not kill an innocent person (let alone one of my children) even if God told me to. What about the rest of forum members?

I wouldn't. I seriously doubt the need for a deity to intervene in human affairs by ordering one to kill another (and a child, at that). Frankly, any deity that would insist on such behavior wouldn't be worth my respect -- or obedience.

[seen da light]

I wouldn't. I seriously doubt the need for a deity to intervene in human affairs by ordering one to kill another (and a child, at that). Frankly, any deity that would insist on such behavior wouldn't be worth my respect -- or obedience.

surely you must look at the covenant that the people of the time held with God.God and the people were totally separate except for the righteous men who obeyed God's laws or commands.

When Jesus came ,the covenant was changed.Such a thing now is inexcusable.however, at the time when the lord almighty spoke to you, you obeyed.Surely we can see that this was a test of his faith.God never tests one past what he/she can handle.He was obeying the Lord and if it meant sacrifice such as was the custom at the time, so be it.

But the Lord intervened and told him to stop.Showing it was a test of how faithful his servant was under the covenant that the people held with God

May God bless you all

[KnowJah]

The reason Abraham listened to God to kill his Son because he had faith that if he did, God would ressurect him.

[Simon's Legacy]

I also, could not/would not kill my own child (or any other), even if God told me to. Like the old song, God said, Abe when you see me comin you better run. Abe said, God where do you want this killin done. I don't think Highway 61 is the place for Christianity. Abraham's act of faith is supposed to represent the importance of faith in God's word above all else. I believe it's a poor and terrible lesson. Zeal divorced from compassion has been and always will be a curse in every religion.

[Bugmaster]

In Abarham's case he was 100% sure of his porphethood and the fact that the message was from God. I know 100% that I'm not a prophet, and I sure as Hell don't think I will be one.

Well, if you were a prophet, how would you know ?

Basically, as far as I understand, the world of the theist is populated with many spiritual entities. There's God, of course, but there's also the Devil. There are angels and demons. There are witches and warlocks. There are prophets and false prophets.

When you have a voice in your head telling you to kill people, how can you be sure it comes from God, and not from one of the nastier supernatural critters ? If your God condemns the killing of innocents, then you'd better be very, very sure of what you're doing before picking up that sword, or else it's the lakes of fire for you.

[Malleus]

Firstly

Surely we can see that this was a test of his faith.God never tests one past what he/she can handle.He was obeying the Lord and if it meant sacrifice such as was the custom at the time, so be it.

\

Your arguement is self defeating, if Abraham killing his child was a test of faith, and god never tests one past what they can handle, then god already knew what Abraham could handle, which means he already knew that he would kill his child, of course making the test an exercise in futility. Futher to that point, why would an omniscient god need to test anyones faith, seems pointless.

Secondly, why should you listen to god if he orders you to kill your own child. Surely there is an inherent conflict of interest on gods part, assuming he is the creator of everything then it follows that he is the both the source of ultimate good and ultimate evil, and his advice and guidelines should be looked upon with great distrust, after all you can see the dichotomy in the bible where he endorses and rejects slavery, or where he forbids killing yet destroys Soddam and Gamorrah and stones to death adulterers and other "non compliant" individuals.

We shouldnt go killing people on a whim, or at all for that matter, but rather let people live the way they see fit too live as long as it doesnt have a literally detrimental effect on the people around them.