How would you react to Adam and Eve?

[OnceConvinced]

Adam and Steve... I mean Eve... were supposedly responsible for the fall of man. Due to their disobedience all of mankind was cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffering was piled upon them. Some even believe that sin corrupted the world and animals that were once herbivores became carnivores. Animals that were once harmless became venomous. Some believe that viruses and disease sprouted up as a result of sin entering creation.

Adam and Eve were the ones responsible for this, so surely everyone should be enraged at them? When you get to Heaven, surely, you will want to kick their asses for being so stupid and sentencing mankind to suffering on Earth?

Or do you see them as innocent beings in a dirty trick played by God? That God set them up to fail? Do you see God as the one responsible for all the suffering, so you don't blame Adam and Eve for what's happened?

Or perhaps you are even delighted that Adam and Eve did what they did, because you got to live a pretty cool life on a pretty cool planet. So you are grateful for their disobedience?

What do you think of Adam and Eve?

How would YOU react to Adam and Eve if you met them in Heaven?

[Davidjayjordan]

Adam and Steve... I mean Eve... were supposedly responsible for the fall of man. Due to their disobedience all of mankind was cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffering was piled upon them. Some even believe that sin corrupted the world and animals that were once herbivores became carnivores. Animals that were once harmless became venomous. Some believe that viruses and disease sprouted up as a result of sin entering creation.

Adam and Eve were the ones responsible for this, so surely everyone should be enraged at them? When you get to Heaven, surely, you will want to kick their asses for being so stupid and sentencing mankind to suffering on Earth?

Or do you see them as innocent beings in a dirty trick played by God? That God set them up to fail? Do you see God as the one responsible for all the suffering, so you don't blame Adam and Eve for what's happened?

Or perhaps you are even delighted that Adam and Eve did what they did, because you got to live a pretty cool life on a pretty cool planet. So you are grateful for their disobedience?

What do you think of Adam and Eve?

How would YOU react to Adam and Eve if you met them in Heaven?

I wouldn't judge them. I suspect I wouldn't have lasted half as long as them before I sinned.

Wisely spoken... as we are all sinners... as far as I know, and yet there was a way back into the GARDEN, as the angel with the sword made sure, that any could return and find peace (via the Son of Man, also called the Messiah, also called Jesus, by those that KNOW HE is the Messiah)

[OnceConvinced]

If your children (adult children) brought death into your house, thereby endangering your house to everyone else in that house, as well as your great, great, great, etc, grand-children who might return to that house one day, then you might not consider that deed to be so trivial.

You need to compare apples with apples here. Adam and Eve did not bring death. All they did was eat from a tree they weren't supposed to eat from. It was God who brought death. He put that curse upon them.

If those were the stakes, then you might say... okay then son... if you are not willing to abide by the rules of this house, then out you go into the house that I gave to you (the earth and all that is in it), even though you messed it up for yourself and your children.

Eating the fruit from the tree was simply a rebellious act like someone stealing from the cookie jar. You don't throw people out on the street for stealing from the cookie jar.

And even though you have done this, I won't abandon you, but will continue to provide guidance to you and your children, and I will even provide a way (Christ) back to this house, and to the tree of Life (Christ).

God cast Adam and Eve out of the garden and lumped them with pain, suffering and death. All because of one trivial rebellious act,... which they repented of! And not just them either. All their offspring and future generations.

This is not an act of a loving benevolent God.

[OnceConvinced]

Wisely spoken... as we are all sinners... as far as I know, and yet there was a way back into the GARDEN, as the angel with the sword made sure, that any could return and find peace (via the Son of Man, also called the Messiah, also called Jesus, by those that KNOW HE is the Messiah)

But yet billions and billions of humans are going to go to hell all because of Adam and Eve's foolishness. Billions upon billions of humans burning and suffering for perhaps all of eternity! Some of your loved ones may be amongst that lot burning in Hell, all because Adam and Eve screwed everything up. How can you not at least be a little bitter towards them?

I bet if it were Hitler who caused us to be cast out of the Garden of Eden due to his genicide, you wouldn't be nearly so forgiving. You wouldn't be saying "Oh we're all sinners. Hitler is no worse". But yet Adam and Eve are responsible for billions more people dying. Billions more being tortured in Hell. Only the minority are going to get back into the garden.

[tam]

If your children (adult children) brought death into your house, thereby endangering your house to everyone else in that house, as well as your great, great, great, etc, grand-children who might return to that house one day, then you might not consider that deed to be so trivial.

You need to compare apples with apples here. Adam and Eve did not bring death. All they did was eat from a tree they weren't supposed to eat from. It was God who brought death. He put that curse upon them.

Now, you see this is where we will differ in our understanding.

God did not curse them with death. Nor did he ever say that he would curse them with death if they ate from the tree of knowing good and bad.

Man has read that into the text but it is not there.

"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

If you eat... you will die.

Not "if you eat... I will kill you."

Not "if you eat... I will curse you with death".

If you eat... you will die.

Cause and effect.

Helps if one understands that it was not the tree of knowledge. It was not the tree of knowing the difference between good and bad. It was the tree of knowing good (life); and knowing bad (death).

If those were the stakes, then you might say... okay then son... if you are not willing to abide by the rules of this house, then out you go into the house that I gave to you (the earth and all that is in it), even though you messed it up for yourself and your children.

Eating the fruit from the tree was simply a rebellious act like someone stealing from the cookie jar. You don't throw people out on the street for stealing from the cookie jar.

No, you are making light of something that was not a light matter. And in this case the rebellious act makes way for death to enter into the world, through Adam.

Nor did he repent, as you seem to think. He blamed God and Eve for what he did.

"The woman YOU put here with me. She gave me some, and I ate."

Blame the woman, and blame God for putting the woman there with him in the first place.

But Adam was not deceived. He wanted what the serpent was offering, and he allowed his bride to be deceived he did nothing to step in and try to warn her, as love would have done). When the time came, if he had stepped up and asked mercy for Eve, that her sin be put on him, then this act of love could have redeemed him. Because love covers over a multitude of sins. But he did not do that either.

He would not learn the easy way... he had to learn the hard way, in the world that he had sold to death, and with all the suffering that came as a result of that.



There are other things that we will understand differently about this account as well, but I will leave it at that for now.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

But yet billions and billions of humans are going to go to hell all because of Adam and Eve's foolishness. Billions upon billions of humans burning and suffering for perhaps all of eternity! Some of your loved ones may be amongst that lot burning in Hell, all because Adam and Eve screwed everything up. How can you not at least be a little bitter towards them?

No such place as the 'christian hell'.

Hell - hades/sheol - the grave. Not a place of torture and torment. Job prayed to go there to escape his suffering.

Every single person went there - good or bad - before Christ. They have not been burning in torment since the beginning of time. They were just dead, sleeping, conscious of nothing.


Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Davidjayjordan]

Tam, No offense but I dont believe you are able to make positive statements without thoroughly explaining every detail of every claim first. At least that is what I have been told when I make a definitive statement, this even when I follow the rules and state (IN MY OPINION).

I surely dont mind your forthrightness and clarity even if disagreeing with what you state. Nevertheless I believe the rules say you cant say or write such things without substaniating your statement or claim first.

I know I know it is ********, but I believe thats a rule. At least from what has been written to me, Maybe someone can clarify that for you and I and others.

[tam]

Peace to you DJJ, and thanks. No offense taken of course.

I believe the level of (or acceptable) evidence that one gives depends upon which forum one is posting in.

Personal evidence is permitted, depending, but may not hold much weight in a debate. Scriptural evidence is permitted even in a debate if scriptural evidence is what is being used to make the statement you are arguing against in the first place.

In short, one can argue scripture with scripture, regardless of what sub-forum one is participating in. This is my understanding at least.

This entire thread is predicated on what is written in scripture, and a particular interpretation of scripture, so one must be permitted to use scripture in response. Again, from what I have understood from the rules.


Is there something that I wrote above that I did not substantiate with what is written? I could have gone into more detail regarding the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and how it cannot be the tree of knowing right from wrong, or the tree of knowing the difference between good and evil (including that Solomon asks for this later, and is praised for asking for such a thing... showing that God has no problem with us knowing the difference between good and bad)

The rest I just quoted the proper wording "if you eat... you will die", rather than 'if you eat... I will kill you". As for hell - I could link to the meaning of the word: hades/sheol... and also gehenna. I have done so before on the forum.


But this thread is not about proving if there is or is not a hell/place of eternal torment - but about how we would feel about Adam and Eve were we to meet them in heaven. Once convinced states that a reason we should not be able to embrace Adam and Eve is because they would be responsible for billions burning for all eternity. I think I would have to agree with him if that were true, especially if my loved ones were among those. I could never have ANY peace so as to embrace anyone if i knew that my loved ones were burning for all eternity. But since I have learned and understand that there is no such place of torment, this does not apply, at least not to me.

That is the point I meant to get across.

Much of what is pointed out that christians believe is with regard to traditional interpretation, but just because something is traditionally/commonly accepted is no reason to believe that it is the accurate interpretation or understanding.



Peace to you again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[help3434]

[Replying to tam]

And who caused the fruit to have that effect if not God?

[tam]

Death - the absence of life - simply IS. Adam was a dead being before he was living - before God breathed life into him and he became a living being. So "death" (absence of, or non, life) already existed.

Eating the fruit of that tree (of knowing good - life; and bad - death) brought death.

Just as eating the fruit of the tree of Life brings Life (eternal life - the absence of death).


I do not think I am permitted to explain it more than that. But perhaps some might consider that certain things had to be told in a way that the man receiving the information might be able to hear and bear it, so as to get a sense of the truth. It is hard for us to understand the spiritual (heavenly realities), because we cannot see them physically.

For example:

the trees represent something: the Tree of Life = Life = Christ. Christ was that tree.

The fruit of the Spirit is patience, love, etc, etc.

The fruit of the tree of life is life.

The fruit of the tree of knowing good (life) and bad (death)... is knowing (as in experiencing) good and bad, life and death.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[OnceConvinced]

If your children (adult children) brought death into your house, thereby endangering your house to everyone else in that house, as well as your great, great, great, etc, grand-children who might return to that house one day, then you might not consider that deed to be so trivial.

You need to compare apples with apples here. Adam and Eve did not bring death. All they did was eat from a tree they weren't supposed to eat from. It was God who brought death. He put that curse upon them.

Now, you see this is where we will differ in our understanding.

God did not curse them with death. Nor did he ever say that he would curse them with death if they ate from the tree of knowing good and bad.

Man has read that into the text but it is not there.

"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

If you eat... you will die.

Not "if you eat... I will kill you."

Not "if you eat... I will curse you with death".

If you eat... you will die.

Cause and effect.

Helps if one understands that it was not the tree of knowledge. It was not the tree of knowing the difference between good and bad. It was the tree of knowing good (life); and knowing bad (death).

The thing is God set the system up. He set up the rules. He set up the cause and effect. So if eating from the tree causes death it was God who ordained it that way. So yes, he was indeed placing a curse on them by the fact he created that system in the first place. It was a curse that would come upon them if they ate. It's something that wouldn't have happened otherwise.

Also note Romans 5:12-21 Paul talks of the condemnation of death put upon humans because of Adam's sin.

vs 16: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation
vs 18: 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,

If those were the stakes, then you might say... okay then son... if you are not willing to abide by the rules of this house, then out you go into the house that I gave to you (the earth and all that is in it), even though you messed it up for yourself and your children.

Eating the fruit from the tree was simply a rebellious act like someone stealing from the cookie jar. You don't throw people out on the street for stealing from the cookie jar.

No, you are making light of something that was not a light matter. And in this case the rebellious act makes way for death to enter into the world, through Adam.

One act of rebellion. A definitely trivial act. As I have already shown you the death came in because that was what God ordained. It was his act of condemnation upon mankind. This was worse than just throwing them out of the garden. This was the death penalty and not just upon them. Upon all future generations!

Nor did he repent, as you seem to think. He blamed God and Eve for what he did.

Actually the bible doesn’t describe a lot of his reaction, however later stories indicate he must have repented. The Quran however quite plainly states that Adam did indeed repent:

Al-'A`r�f 7:23 & 25
They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers. He said, Therein you will live, and therein you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."