Why i focus on homosexuality

[OpenYourEyes]

Some members, like Danmark and even otseng, have questioned why i focus on homosexuality so much as if it's a bad thing for me to do. The reason I focus mainly on that issue and not as much on other topics is for two reasons: it is a big objection to Christianity that lots of times is ineffectively addressed, and secondly it's one of my strong areas (The bold font part addresses my strengths and their benefit).

Christians have been losing major ground to the LGBT, or really just the LGT, movement with the increasing acceptance of homosexuality in our culture. A lot of the Christian arguments tend to be biblically based with a narrow view on the history of marriage. So in my view, many Christian responses are ineffective and weak, which takes me to my next point on my strengths on the matter.

I believe one thing that can improve amy Christian response would be to become knowledgeable on sexual orientation, especially on some of the claims of gay advocates. I dont have a reasonable and effective Christian response but I am fairly knowledgeable on the subject since i wrote a research paper on it. So instead of using my strengths on the subject to argue the typical Christian responses, i instead counter some of the faulty claims of gay advocates that tend to mislead people. For instance, because of many interactions with gay advocates at school and online, i was led to believe that homosexuality was an innate and immutable trait. After i did my own research and listened to debates on BOTH sides, i found that some of the claims of gay advocates were untrue. I even found that some of their claims were purposely propagated to help get the issue more accepted by a wider (including Christian) audience.

So far, with the help of others I've had some success as shown in the data from 2 threads which i take to be a representative sample of the views of this forum on 2 key issues dealing w/ sexual orientation. I'll present the data from responses on the cause and immutability of homosexuality:

Debate question #1: Is it scientifically justified to say that homosexuality is caused by biology just like eye color, skin color, gender, etc?

My data shows 90% of forum members in the debate thread responded with " no". The "no" response means that homosexuality is not solely a product of biology.

1. Psychiatric Association? No!
2. American Psychological Association? No!
3. OpenYourEyes? No (post #34)
4. KenRU? No! (post #35)
5. Haven? No! (post #9)
6. bluethread? No! (post 174 and post #176)
7. ScioVeritas? No! (post #65)
8. MasterOfOnesOwnMind? No! (post #44)
9. RKO_? No! (post #84)
10. liamconnor? No! (post #14)
11. Hamsaka? No! (post #15)
12. ttruscott? No! (post #16)
13. Bust Nak? No! (post #33)
14. Hautey? No! (post #50)
15. H.sapiens? No! Late convert. (ppost # 181, last paragraph)
16. enviousintheeveafter? No! (post #252
17. Danmark? No! (post #255)
18. pshun2404? No! (post #283
19. instantc? No (post #308 and
post #312)

20. DanieltheDragon? Yes (post #29)
21. SailorCyclops? Yes.

22. JoeyKnothead? Apathetic or Agnostic (post #25)

Debate question #2: Is it scientifically justified to say that homosexuality is immutable for both men and women?
In other words does homosexuality remain fixed throughout a person's entire lifetime?

The responses show 100% of the participants who answered said "no" meaning that homosexuality is NOT immutable.

1. DanieltheDragon? No! (also refer to post #5)
2. enviousintheeverafter? No!
3.Clownboat? No!
4. Danmark? No!
5. Youkilledkenny? No!
6. Bust Nak? No!
7. Strider234? No!
8. OpenYourEyes? No!


9. Divine Insight? Apathetic

[Hatuey]

[Replying to post 30 by OpenYourEyes]

Would you say that most Christians who "disagree with [homosexuality] on moral grounds," also believe that God hates sin/evil? I've met many Christians who are against homosexuality passionately, and to a man, they all express extreme disgust. It's a worrisome thing to behold. It makes you concerned for their mental state and their health and blood pressure and such. Seriously.

[OpenYourEyes]

Hautey,

I view adultery as being wrong without hating the adulterer and that's the same position i take with gays.

[Hatuey]

[Replying to post 32 by OpenYourEyes]

I view people who are overly obsessed with homosexuality being "wrong" to be struggling with homosexual desires themselves at some level of consciousness. Several studies have implied that this often occurs.

[tam]

An adulterer made a promise (covenant, contract) to be faithful, then betrayed the person they were meant to be faithful TO. Betraying both their promise, and their spouse. (it is not unforgivable, but regardless of the reasons, it is still a betrayal)

This is something they DID.

Gay is something one IS. Straight is something one IS. (obviously that does not count as the entirety of someone's makeup)


If you expect a gay person to be celibate or pretend to be straight with a spouse of the opposite sex (lying - which IS a sin, and one that bring a lot of pain to both partners later down the road)... and you are not willing or able to do these things yourself (at least the celibacy) - then you are loading other people down with a burden you could not carry, and that is hypocrisy.

Christians have been losing major ground to the LGBT, or really just the LGT, movement with the increasing acceptance of homosexuality in our culture.

So what? I don't mean to be glib, but really, so what? What ground are Christians supposed to have in this world? Didn't Christ say that His Kingdom was no part of this world?

"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."


Unless Caesar forces you to do something that is against the command of Christ or God, what business is HIS business of yours or mine? And no one is commanding anyone to be gay... people are just no longer being permitted to discriminate or continue to oppress gay people. That Caesar needs to step in and protect gay people from some believers is not to their credit, but to their shame.


Peace to you still,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[puddleglum]

If you expect a gay person to be celibate or pretend to be straight with a spouse of the opposite sex (lying - which IS a sin, and one that bring a lot of pain to both partners later down the road)... and you are not willing or able to do these things yourself (at least the celibacy) - then you are loading other people down with a burden you could not carry, and that is hypocrisy.

It isn't a question of what we expect but of what God commands. Everyone, whether he is gay or straight, must choose one of two options: either marry a person of the opposite sex and be faithful to that person or remain celibate. In practice a gay person's only option is to be celibate and many have chosen to do so because that is what God has commanded. If you get the chance I recommend that you read a book called Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill.

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/ ... d-waiting/

(I don't know if it makes any difference but I am straight and I am also celibate because I have never found a woman that was willing to marry me.)

Hill also is a contributor to this blog:

http://spiritualfriendship.org/

Here are two other informative links on this subject:

http://truefreedomtrust.co.uk/start_here

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2014/12/14149/

What ground are Christians supposed to have in this world? Didn't Christ say that His Kingdom was no part of this world?

Our job is to invite others to become part of Christ's Kingdom.

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.�
(John 20:21 ESV)

Part of this job is informing other of God's standards so they will realize that they are sinners and need to be forgiven.

[Haven]

Do you have any evidence that a god has commanded that everyone enter a heterosexual marriage or remain celibate? You've presented homophobic ancient writings, but do you have any evidence that they originate from a god and not simply the imaginations of men?

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 35 by puddleglum]

tam wrote:

If you expect a gay person to be celibate or pretend to be straight with a spouse of the opposite sex (lying - which IS a sin, and one that bring a lot of pain to both partners later down the road)... and you are not willing or able to do these things yourself (at least the celibacy) - then you are loading other people down with a burden you could not carry, and that is hypocrisy.

It isn't a question of what we expect but of what God commands. Everyone, whether he is gay or straight, must choose one of two options: either marry a person of the opposite sex and be faithful to that person or remain celibate. In practice a gay person's only option is to be celibate and many have chosen to do so because that is what God has commanded. If you get the chance I recommend that you read a book called Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill.

It's a lot more than that. You (the generic) have yet to show there's a god doing any commanding. At this point, all you have is an ancient set of religious writings that claim to be inspired or written by a god. That's it. That is what you call your god's commands.

You cannot show that your god's commands are of any more substance than tribal imagination of an ancient people. Your claims are worse than irrelevant -- they are absurd, irrational and destructive.

If Christians want to keep such 'moral' laws in their own lives, power to them, and we'll go to great lengths to welcome the LGBTQI rejects and help them heal from the emotional, psychological and sometimes physical abuse they received from the Christians who rejected them.

Otherwise, it's time to stop trying to legislate a religious groups' preferred primitive tribal 'morality'. It's vile enough to do it to your own, but it is your constitutional right.

[enviousintheeverafter]

Some members, like Danmark and even otseng, have questioned why i focus on homosexuality so much as if it's a bad thing for me to do. The reason I focus mainly on that issue and not as much on other topics is for two reasons: it is a big objection to Christianity that lots of times is ineffectively addressed, and secondly it's one of my strong areas (The bold font part addresses my strengths and their benefit).

Christians have been losing major ground to the LGBT, or really just the LGT, movement with the increasing acceptance of homosexuality in our culture. A lot of the Christian arguments tend to be biblically based with a narrow view on the history of marriage. So in my view, many Christian responses are ineffective and weak, which takes me to my next point on my strengths on the matter.

I believe one thing that can improve amy Christian response would be to become knowledgeable on sexual orientation, especially on some of the claims of gay advocates.

The problem here is that knowledge on sexual orientation tends to be completely fatal to the rightwing/fundamentalist Christian view on the morality of homosexuality and legality of SSM. The position is a backwards, ignorant fantasy supported solely by religious dogma and base prejudice; there are no credible empirical grounds for this view, nor are there any credible non-religious ethical grounds for this view. So all this just begs the question- whats the point? Why attempt the impossible in an attempt to salvage what is just a pernicious and erroneous position?

[enviousintheeverafter]

[Replying to post 32 by OpenYourEyes]

I view people who are overly obsessed with homosexuality being "wrong" to be struggling with homosexual desires themselves at some level of consciousness. Several studies have implied that this often occurs.

Sure. Quite a few studies have found a positive correlation between homophobia and latent homosexual attraction.

[enviousintheeverafter]

Debate question #1: Is it scientifically justified to say that homosexuality is caused by biology just like eye color, skin color, gender, etc?

This is a different question than whether homosexuality is caused solely by biology; its disconcerting how the goalposts constantly seem to be shifting on these threads. But given the current evidence, it is scientifically justified to say that homosexuality is caused by biology- just not solely. Indeed, the evidence appears to indicate, and many scientists hold, that the biological component is necessary. In other words, one could not be gay without the biological factor. So much for strengthening the Christian case against homosexuality on this point, eh?

My data shows 90% of forum members in the debate thread responded with " no". The "no" response means that homosexuality is not solely a product of biology.

As noted, a different question than above. But the fact remains that this doesn't help the Christian argument in any case; it is not scientifically justified to hold that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, or a choice of any kind. But if homosexuality is not volitional, is not a matter of choice or conscious control, then it cannot be evaluated as moral or immoral. So, it cannot be scientifically justified to claim that homosexuality is immoral. And while the fact that homosexuality is not a matter of choice, control, or lifestyle certainly helps the SSM/LGBT case, it's not reliant on it either.

But the bottom line here is that even if these claims about the cause of homosexuality are accurate, the relative strength of the pro and anti SSM/LGBT cases remain unaffected, so you've made no headway towards your stated goal here (which again raises the question of why- given that this view is not only not scientifically justified, but is also responsible for so much harm and is, ironically, itself so morally offensive).