Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

[Regens Küchl]

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.

"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter

Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 210:

We see myth every time we see unsupported claims, right there when the claimant fails to support 'em. Especially when these claims violate all we know about the world.

Are you sure about that? Because I don't think anyone else is going to be, not even the non-believers.
...

Wow.

Not one word about my Post 208 that exposed your arrogant, insulting attitude t'wards Jews.

Just upset I didn't quite get the definition of "myth" correct.

Here's a trick they might not have taught you in them schools you're so proud to mention every chance you get - words are defined by the person presenting 'em, whether they're common definitions or not, and not by some high-falootin' "Theologian" who uses their definitions to define Jews as "stubborn".

I propose we now have some data to conclude "Theology" is the myth that one's arrogant, condescending attitude t'wards those who reject one's religious beliefs is somehow more valid than the theology of the group one wishes to call "stubborn" not to believe like it is I tell 'em they oughta.


So go ahead, dispell that myth!

You've resorted to the oldest and most useless trick in the book:

Then by declaring the Jews "stubborn" for rejecting your precious "Theology" you must surely have resorted to the next oldest!

If you have no rebuttal, resort to namecalling and silliness.

The lulz never stop with some of you incapable of self-reflection Christians.

In my previous post to the one's got you all in a fuss, I responded to your slanderous accusation that Jews were "stubbornly" rejecting your theology, noting you "started it", and how it is, you "sillily" ignore that rebutal in order to correct me on a definition.

From now on, I will not respond to your posts.

Back of the line lady, you ain't the first'n given up on trying to refute me.

They are not amusing and I find they add nothing to what some of us are trying to do, i.e. have a serious discussion. I'm not even going to bother to READ your posts.

An infinite amount of zeros still can't present how much care I don't.

I'll continue to call your libels out every chance I get, with the full expectation that the observer'll see you have no argument against me, 'cept maybe to call me "stubborn". And here it is, I can't legally call myself a Jew!

(edit to resort paragraphs)

[Zzyzx]

.

T have to assume that you do not know that many, many Jews DO accept Christ as the long-awaited Savior. They are called "Messianic Jews," and true to Wikipedia's unreliability, they DID exist in first century Jerusalem.

Messianic Jews are estimated to number 1 million worldwide http://christianity.about.com/od/messia ... udaism.htm

In theological-speak does 1 million in 7 billion constitute "many, many"? That is 1 in 7000 or about .00014% if my math is accurate (someone check that please).

How did Paul turn Jesus into a Messiah?

It appears as though Paul/Saul and accomplices hijacked the Jesus Movement from Judaism and sold it to Gentiles – including Roman emperors. After the new upstart religion was made compatible with Gentile / Pagan beliefs and practices (and Roman officials' objectives) it was adopted as the officially sanctioned religion of the empire (which allowed it to emerge as a popular religion).

Paul PERSECUTED Jesus until after the crucifixion.

Correction: Paul/Saul admittedly never met Jesus except in a "vision" (or delusion, or hallucination or fabrication or whatever it was). HOW could he have persecuted someone he never met or interacted with? He is said, in bible tales, to have persecuted followers of Jesus. Is there extra-biblical verification of even this claim?

Wow, Paul must have been REALLY, REALLY powerful! To single-handedly begin a religion that now contains more than 3.2 billion adherents and has the longest unbroken record of any institution on earth.

Paul/Saul may have been an outstanding PR person, performer, salesman of his era – perhaps on the order of Joseph Smith, or Bill Gates or The Beetles or Steve Jobs or Barrack Obama or Pat Robertson or Jim Jones in more recent times.

I think you know Paul did not turn Jesus into a Messiah. Paul only spread the word.

It appears as though Jesus was made the "messiah" by Roman church officials centuries after his death.

The crucifixion and the Resurrection happened while Paul was a Jesus-hater.

It might be more accurate to say that Jesus was executed prior to Paul/Saul's "conversion" via a "vision". Is his record of "persecutions" documented in sources other than Bible stories that make the claim?

So, too the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies. No one "turned" Jesus into a Messiah. He simply was the Messiah.

The vast majority of Jews disagree. It was THEIR book, THEIR supposed "messiah" prophesies, THEIR decision to make. The upstart competitive gentile religion claimed that it knew better than the Jews what fit their criteria.

Rather presumptuous, wouldn't you say?

In a similar vein the upstart religion known as Islam also claims to know more about Jewish beliefs and literature than the Jews themselves. Arrogance?

The Bible cannot be understood by taking things in isolation. It's like trying to read ANNA KARENINA in bits and pieces. If you turn to a certain page, you'll find that Levin, himself, is attracted to Anna. Someone not conversant with the entire book, and someone who has not read and studied it cover-to-cover would say, "That Levin is a fool for wanting Anna!" Things taken out of context are never understood properly.

"Out of context" is a common Apologist evasive tactic. Put the "resurrection" story into whatever context you desire and show that it actually occurred as described (or the talking donkey, or the water into wine, or the virgin birth, or the star stopping over a specific location, or walking on water, etc, etc.

I can't help but chuckle at your signature. How long do you think that "man on fire" is going to live? One minute? Three?

Signatures are not a matter for debate.

[Zzyzx]

.

1. a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

That seems to fit most religious beliefs, including Christianity, rather well.

2. a widely held but false belief or idea.

How are Christian beliefs and stories any LESS a "false belief or ideal" than any other religious beliefs (often dismissed by Christians as false)?

Sorry to be so disappointing, but I don't think your belief is (1) a traditional story, or (2) a widely held false belief.

Correction: it is the Christian beliefs that are in question regarding being a traditional story (folklore, legend, fable, religion promotional literature) and there is legitimate question regarding the truth and accuracy of those claims and stories.

You've resorted to the oldest and most useless trick in the book: If you have no rebuttal, resort to namecalling and silliness. From now on, I will not respond to your posts. They are not amusing and I find they add nothing to what some of us are trying to do, i.e. have a serious discussion. I'm not even going to bother to READ your posts.

Anyone is free to ignore, refuse to read, or fail to respond to ANY posts. There is a convenient "ignore" function available for that purpose. However, readers are free to evaluate what is said whether there is a response or not – and to decide for themselves if the reasons / excuses offered are valid.

[enviousintheeverafter]

I'll be swinging by your place of work next week to drop off a package. I don't know the day or the hour though.

Yeah it sounds like Christ operates like the cable company- they can tell you they're coming, and coming relatively soon, they just can't you any specifics. I've always hated that- "oh, we'll be coming sometime between Aug 1 at 5 am and Sept 15 at 11 pm, make sure you're home during that time". Um, ok.

And I would imagine that 40-70+ years (two or three generations) of these scriptural accounts existing as an oral tradition, likely preserved/transmitted in the synagogue, strikes me as an appropriate amount of time for mythological elements to have seeped in, and obviously people don't usually intentionally set out to create myths, so the "injurious details" argument doesn't really work.

[Clownboat]

Matthew was, of course, written for a Jewish audience, so why the explanations?

Sweet! Let's ask the Jews about Jesus being a Messiah, dying and rising from the dead and coming back to earth to establish a kingdom.

I kid of course. Just want to point out the irony that the Jews (the Old Testament being their tradition of 'history') don't accept the words of Paul who turned Jesus into a Messiah. The Old Testament and the book of Mathew does not turn this Jesus into their Messiah, therefore to consider him returning (from the standpoint of most (all?) Jews) is nonsensical in the first place.

Only followers of Paul would consider such a thing I would presume. Now why should anybody care about what Paul said? That's the real question. Personally, I think Jesus would roll over in his grave if he knew what Paul did with his message, but Paul contradicting Jesus would deserve a thread of its own.

T have to assume that you do not know that many, many Jews DO accept Christ as the long-awaited Savior. They are called "Messianic Jews," and true to Wikipedia's unreliability, they DID exist in first century Jerusalem.

If Christ is their savior, then they would be Christians. Either way, I don't understand your complaint, because I said 'most' Jews clarified with an '(all?)' due to the hole Messianic Jew gig.

There are plenty or sites that write of Messianic Jews. Google can be your friend in this regard.

Is your point that Google can be my friend. If not, please make a point here.

How did Paul turn Jesus into a Messiah? Paul PERSECUTED Jesus until after the crucifixion. Wow, Paul must have been REALLY, REALLY powerful! To single-handedly begin a religion that now contains more than 3.2 billion adherents and has the longest unbroken record of any institution on earth.

I think you know Paul did not turn Jesus into a Messiah.

Z has addressed this for now.

I can't help but chuckle at your signature. How long do you think that "man on fire" is going to live? One minute? Three?

How long? For the rest of his life naturally.

How about this one:
"Give a man a fish, and he will be fed for a day. Teach a man to pray for fish, and he will die of starvation".

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 4 by Wootah]

Glad you brought up Hoodini. The witnesses were intentionally being misled i.e. slight of hand. I would not trust the witnesses of a magicians trick. Likewise why should we trust the writers of the resurrection?

Yes - but do you note that you are raising a new point because this is necessary due to the refuting of the current point?

I'm so sorry, Whootah, but YOU brought up the Houdini TRICK as analogous to the Jesus resurrection TRICK. It's not a new point, it was YOUR point.

We know how clever people can TRICK us into believing in magic....
so it makes sense that you mentioned Houdini in this context.

[LilytheTheologian]

.

T have to assume that you do not know that many, many Jews DO accept Christ as the long-awaited Savior. They are called "Messianic Jews," and true to Wikipedia's unreliability, they DID exist in first century Jerusalem.

Messianic Jews are estimated to number 1 million worldwide http://christianity.about.com/od/messia ... udaism.htm

In theological-speak does 1 million in 7 billion constitute "many, many"? That is 1 in 7000 or about .00014% if my math is accurate (someone check that please).

How did Paul turn Jesus into a Messiah?

It appears as though Paul/Saul and accomplices hijacked the Jesus Movement from Judaism and sold it to Gentiles – including Roman emperors. After the new upstart religion was made compatible with Gentile / Pagan beliefs and practices (and Roman officials' objectives) it was adopted as the officially sanctioned religion of the empire (which allowed it to emerge as a popular religion).

Paul PERSECUTED Jesus until after the crucifixion.

Correction: Paul/Saul admittedly never met Jesus except in a "vision" (or delusion, or hallucination or fabrication or whatever it was). HOW could he have persecuted someone he never met or interacted with? He is said, in bible tales, to have persecuted followers of Jesus. Is there extra-biblical verification of even this claim?

Wow, Paul must have been REALLY, REALLY powerful! To single-handedly begin a religion that now contains more than 3.2 billion adherents and has the longest unbroken record of any institution on earth.

Paul/Saul may have been an outstanding PR person, performer, salesman of his era – perhaps on the order of Joseph Smith, or Bill Gates or The Beetles or Steve Jobs or Barrack Obama or Pat Robertson or Jim Jones in more recent times.

I think you know Paul did not turn Jesus into a Messiah. Paul only spread the word.

It appears as though Jesus was made the "messiah" by Roman church officials centuries after his death.

The crucifixion and the Resurrection happened while Paul was a Jesus-hater.

It might be more accurate to say that Jesus was executed prior to Paul/Saul's "conversion" via a "vision". Is his record of "persecutions" documented in sources other than Bible stories that make the claim?

So, too the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies. No one "turned" Jesus into a Messiah. He simply was the Messiah.

The vast majority of Jews disagree. It was THEIR book, THEIR supposed "messiah" prophesies, THEIR decision to make. The upstart competitive gentile religion claimed that it knew better than the Jews what fit their criteria.

Rather presumptuous, wouldn't you say?

In a similar vein the upstart religion known as Islam also claims to know more about Jewish beliefs and literature than the Jews themselves. Arrogance?

The Bible cannot be understood by taking things in isolation. It's like trying to read ANNA KARENINA in bits and pieces. If you turn to a certain page, you'll find that Levin, himself, is attracted to Anna. Someone not conversant with the entire book, and someone who has not read and studied it cover-to-cover would say, "That Levin is a fool for wanting Anna!" Things taken out of context are never understood properly.

"Out of context" is a common Apologist evasive tactic. Put the "resurrection" story into whatever context you desire and show that it actually occurred as described (or the talking donkey, or the water into wine, or the virgin birth, or the star stopping over a specific location, or walking on water, etc, etc.

I can't help but chuckle at your signature. How long do you think that "man on fire" is going to live? One minute? Three?

Signatures are not a matter for debate.

Since you like math how could someone predict Jesus' crucifixion nearly 500 years before it occurred? The following is not my work, but I have provided the source, and does allow copying for purposes of illustration:

The precise timing of Jesus’ crucifixion was also given to the Jews when God revealed to the prophet Daniel (9:24) how the Jews could calculate the day of the revealing of the Messiah. Talking of a 490 year period, the prophet foresaw that it would begin “from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem� (9:25). In the book of Nehemiah we learn that this command was given “in the month Nisan [on the Hebrew calendar], in the twentieth year of the king� (2:1). The king was Artaxerxes Longimanus who ruled from 465 to 425 B.C. The prophet Daniel said that 483 years from that date, the Messiah would be revealed to Israel, but He would then �be cut off, but not for himself� (9:26). This prophecy refers to the crucifixion when Jesus died, or was cut off, for the sins of the world.

Four hundred ninety-three years later, to the day, was Sunday, April 6, 32 A.D. On that day, which Christians commemorate as Palm Sunday, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey (also revealed in prophecy) and revealed Himself as Israel’s Messiah. He was killed four days later, thus fulfilling the prophecy that He would be revealed and then slain. [Peter and Paul LaLonde, 301 Startling Proofs & Prophecies (Niagra Falls, Ontario, Canada: Prophecy Partners, Inc., 1996).]

I have greatly respected all the Jews I have known personally, however, given the prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures, which they accept, I find it difficult to believe that they still await the Messiah, or more to the point, I can't understand why they await the Messiah. The time given to them in prophecy has come and gone. As I said, I have respected all the Jews I have known, and I have known many, however, it seems the Gentiles were better at math then the Jews, or knew the HS prophecies better.

Paul never claimed to have seen Jesus in a "vision." He claimed a "spiritual body," which is not a vision. And you never answered the question: If he wanted to be believed, if he were lying, why would he pick a disadvantageous time to tell others of Christ's appearance to him? He wouldn't, if he would have been as cunning as you're making him out to be. He would have waited for a time when he would be more likely to be believed. That sort of puts to rest your claim that he must have been, or even could have been an outstanding PR person.

Paul did not "hijack" Christianity. He had disputes with Peter, to be sure, mostly over whether or not new Christians had to follow the Jewish law, circumcision, in particular. Considering that many grown men who were circumcised in the first century died from blood loss, it's not surprising that they did not want to be circumcised. Peter and Paul, however, were on friendly terms.

Now surely you know Paul persecuted Christians and defamed the name of Christ prior to his conversion. If I were to go around defaming Buddhism and all it teaches, I would be accused of "defaming Buddha," though he was LOOOOOOG dead before my ancestors were born. It seems you are clutching at straws. You didn't address my reasons why Christ and the Bible cannot be a myth but changed the subject instead. That tactic won't work with me.

[historia]

It appears as though Jesus was made the "messiah" by Roman church officials centuries after his death.

The earliest Christian sources we possess call Jesus the Messiah -- or "Christ," which is the equivalent Greek term. This is explainable only if that concept was part of Christianity from the very beginning. And, needless to say, was therefore not imposed by "Roman church officials" centuries after Jesus' death.

[Zzyzx]

.

I have greatly respected all the Jews I have known personally, however, given the prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures, which they accept, I find it difficult to believe that they still await the Messiah, or more to the point,

It would be prudent to take up this matter with Jews rather than Non-Jews. Ask Cnorman.

I can't understand why they await the Messiah. The time given to them in prophecy has come and gone.

Why would that be surprising to Christians who still await "the second coming" or "the end of the world" (which has been "prophesied" frequently for two thousand years)?


Care to address any other points from my post?

[LilytheTheologian]

[Replying to post 219 by Zzyzx]

Christians still await the Second Coming because no one gave them a time frame for when it would happen. Just the opposite. Christ, himself, said, "About that no one knows the day or the hour...".

historia wrote: The earliest Christian sources we possess call Jesus the Messiah -- or "Christ," which is the equivalent Greek term. This is explainable only if that concept was part of Christianity from the very beginning. And, needless to say, was therefore not imposed by "Roman church officials" centuries after Jesus' death.

You are exactly right. When Jesus asked Peter who he was, Peter responded: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Mt. 16:16). So, even before Christ's ascension into heaven and the establishment of his Church, people knew, and were presumably taught, that he was the Christ. BTW, Peter, and all the apostles, were Jews, so some of them were conversant with the prophecies of Daniel, etc.