Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Regens Küchl
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Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #1

Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

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Post #151

Post by Haven »

Welcome to the forum, Lily :).
[color=olive]LilytheTheologian[/color] wrote: Someone told me more Theists were needed here. I can see why. Most posters don't answer people seriously.
Because only theists can answer questions seriously?
[color=green]Lily[/color] wrote:I thought this was going to be intelligent debate by people who know what they're talking about. All I've seen is a bunch of God-haters, and that doesn't make God any less real.
I'm not aware of a single God-hater on this forum. It's true that there are several people here who don't believe in God, but there's no one here (as far as I know) who hates God.

Do you hate Zeus? What about Roog? Thor? Pele? Or do you simply not believe in them?

It makes no sense to say that one hates someone they don't believe in. What you're doing is called the poisoning the well fallacy; attempting to make others believe that your opponents are somehow flawed or immoral before debating the content of their arguments.
♥ Haven (she/her) ♥
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Post #152

Post by Zzyzx »

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LilytheTheologian wrote: You DO know presidents, with few exceptions, don't write their own speeches, don't you? And you DO know that most "big time" authors don't write their own books? That thing about Lincoln writing the "Gettysburg Address" on the back of an envelope? Myth. If it weren't where's the envelope? Lincoln was pretty much hated in the South. His name added no prestige there.
There are at least five versions of the Gettysburg address that are different. Is that a myth? Does anyone know what was actually said in the speech?
There are several sources of the speech: Five known manuscript copies of the Gettysburg Address are each named for the associated person who received it from Lincoln below. All versions differ in their wording, punctuation, and structure.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gettysburg_Address
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Post #153

Post by Zzyzx »

.
LilytheTheologian wrote: You DO know presidents, with few exceptions, don't write their own speeches, don't you? And you DO know that most "big time" authors don't write their own books?
Did Jesus have speech writers?
LilytheTheologian wrote: [Replying to post 147 by Zzyzx]

It was the custom of the time to attach a well known person's name to a writing. It would certainly be considered forgery now, but it was customary then.
The practices of pious fraud (including petrographical) were condemned by scholars and theologians of the era. "Misquoting Jesus" Bart D. Ehrman (thorough, many places, may citations).
Kindly provide references and links to ... Theologian"]
[
Maybe in 2000 years it will be considered fraud or impersonation or something else for women to be heavily made up, change their hair color, or for two persons to have the same name. [/quote]
Some now consider heavy makeup to be false advertising.


Is this to suggest, for instance, that the "Paul" of faked Pauline letters was also named Paul but was not the famous one – or Mark, Matthew, John and Luke writers just happened to have the same name as the famous peoplel?

Were there other people named Jesus (or whatever name was used by the icon of Christianity)? If so, would it have been acceptable practice for their words be used in gospel accounts under the name Jesus?

If pseudographical / false attribution was "custom of the time" doesn't that cast doubt upon the true origin of words attributed to Jesus?


Perhaps you can give a serious (and accurate) answer to questions regarding the under-representation of Theists.


I trust that you will answer questions seriously, honestly, openly, without evasion.


It is unwise (but not uncommon) to underestimate the opposition – OR one's own strength.

One's standing in academia or in other groups is unimportant in these debates. What matters is the strength and support of ideas / positions presented. In fact, "status" elsewhere can be a hindrance if a person is accustomed to preferential / deferential treatment in other settings and succumbs to a temptation to depend upon their position rather than their arguments.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Post #154

Post by Danmark »

Zzyzx wrote: .
LilytheTheologian wrote: You DO know presidents, with few exceptions, don't write their own speeches, don't you? And you DO know that most "big time" authors don't write their own books? That thing about Lincoln writing the "Gettysburg Address" on the back of an envelope? Myth. If it weren't where's the envelope? Lincoln was pretty much hated in the South. His name added no prestige there.
There are at least five versions of the Gettysburg address that are different. Is that a myth? Does anyone know what was actually said in the speech?
There are several sources of the speech: Five known manuscript copies of the Gettysburg Address are each named for the associated person who received it from Lincoln below. All versions differ in their wording, punctuation, and structure.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gettysburg_Address
I don't recall any references to supernatural events or other impossible occurrences claimed by Lincoln in any of his drafts of the Gettysburg Address. Another way to address the issue would be to inquire if there are any, ANY ancient documents that refer to supernatural events of the same order as the resurrection or the ascension, that are taken seriously as evidence such events actually took place? Muhammad's ascent to heaven on a flying donkey?

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Post #155

Post by Student »

That's four times, in this thread, you've mentioned "modern/new dating techniques".
LilytheTheologian wrote:What evidence do you speak of? Are you familiar with the most modern dating techniques?
Evidently I reside in a blissful state of ignorance with regard to these modern dating techniques. No doubt, you will shortly rectify this deficiency on my part.
LilytheTheologian wrote:Modern dating techniques show all four gospels to have been written between 40-65, so all are most probably the work of eyewitnesses.
What exactly are these "modern dating techniques"? Please, do tell.
LilytheTheologian wrote: New dating done on the fragments of the gospels found show that all were most likely written between 40-65 CE, indicating eyewitness authors and accounts even if their names were not Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
"New dating", presumably conducted using "modern dating techniques"? Well, I admit, I'm intrigued, pray tell me more.
LilytheTheologian wrote: We will probably never know for sure who wrote the gospels, but the newest dating techniques do tell us that they were all composed prior to the year 65 CE, something that lends itself to eyewitness information.
Ok, point taken, "newest dating techniques"; cut to the chase, what are these techniques?
LilytheTheologian wrote: However, aren't you familiar with the newest dating techniques and scholarship that attribute the gospels to the names attached to them? From your posts, I would think you would be.
Well, I'll freely admit [again], I'm entirely ignorant of these newest techniques. When will you elucidate?

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Post #156

Post by enviousintheeverafter »

[Replying to post 155 by Student]
Holy smokes! The Gospels have been dated to somewhere between 40 and 70 years after Christs death, so the conclusion one somehow (inexplicably) comes to is that they were probably written by eyewitness? :-s

Those were some incredibly old people!

Of course, the probable dates of the Gospels is very strong evidence against them being eyewitness accounts, or even being written by the men whose names they bear.

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Post #157

Post by Zzyzx »

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enviousintheeverafter wrote: Of course, the probable dates of the Gospels is very strong evidence against them being eyewitness accounts, or even being written by the men whose names they bear.
Agreed.

This information is typically overlooked or denied by those who want to believe gospels are authentic depiction of events surrounding Jesus.
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Post #158

Post by Student »

enviousintheeverafter wrote: [Replying to post 155 by Student]
Holy smokes! The Gospels have been dated to somewhere between 40 and 70 years after Christs death, so the conclusion one somehow (inexplicably) comes to is that they were probably written by eyewitness? :-s

Those were some incredibly old people!

Of course, the probable dates of the Gospels is very strong evidence against them being eyewitness accounts, or even being written by the men whose names they bear.
Hello enviousintheeverafter
I'm afraid your question/post is directed at the wrong person. I'm not saying that the gospels were composed by eye-witnesses, that is LilytheT's claim. Try redirecting your comments towards her.

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Post #159

Post by Student »

Haven wrote:Do you hate Zeus? What about Roog? Thor? Pele? Or do you simply not believe in them?
Come on Haven, how can anyone hate Pelé? Without doubt, he has to be considered the greatest football [for those in the US: Soccer]player ever? Three World Cups; Brazil's leading goal scorer, and all round nice guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHG-e9XF8yo
Why wouldn't anyone believe in the divine powers of the Black Pearl?

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Post #160

Post by enviousintheeverafter »

[Replying to post 158 by Student]

I can see how that may have been unclear, but I'm aware who said what, I was replying to your discussion with LilytheTheologian, in particular the one comment she had made. But the part that was relevant to you was that the conclusions of modern Biblical scholars- whose dating techniques generally involve triangulating Biblical claims/passages with known historical events and evidence- do indeed put the age of the Gospels in the approximate range Lily mentions, but this is evidence for the exact opposite conclusion she has drawn from it.

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