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Replying to post 113 by LilytheTheologian]
Reply part 2 of 2:
LilytheTheologian wrote:
Ovid's METAMORPHOSIS is an example of a pagan myth, and it is nothing like the literary style of the NT. The gospel writers did NOT invent modern realistic fantasy 20 centuries ago.
Literary styles have changed over the past few or many centuries. Evidently two thousand years ago writers freely mixed fact with fantasy and were not opposed to injecting fanciful "moral lessons" or religious tales to suit their agenda.
LilytheTheologian wrote:
Sure, science fiction and fantasy can be replete with detail, but REALISTIC science fiction did not exist in first century anywhere.
Perhaps gospel tales represent an early form of a genera that might be identified as "Creative Theology."
LilytheTheologian wrote:
They include dozens and dozens of little details that someone not living in the first century could not know, and they contain NO second century anachronisms.
Some of the "little details" (for instance concerning geographical information of Judea) have been shown to be dead wrong. Does that affect credibility of people who should have known better by virtue of residing in the area?
LilytheTheologian wrote:
6. The claim of Jesus as God makes sense of his trial and crucifixion.
No gods or god claims are required for a person to be executed for bucking established power structure (religious and secular). It is not surprising that an upstart preacher opposing Jewish hierarchy and Roman officials would have met with an unpleasant end.
LilytheTheologian wrote:
7. There are four gospels, as you know. And they were written by different men, in different times, in different places, so a lot of cross-checking is possible. Through textual triangulation, we can know the facts of Jesus' life with FAR GREATER accuracy than any other personage or series of events. The only inaccuracies occur in dates and numbers, e.g. how many angels were seen in the empty tomb, etc.
How accurate is "cross-checking" and "textural triangulation" in determining factual information if the texts in question show strong evidence of being copied from one another and/or from another source?
As a theologian you are no doubt familiar with the "Synoptic Problem":
"The Synoptic Problem, briefly stated, is the attempt to explain how Matthew, Mark, and Luke agree, yet disagree, in these three areas: content, wording, and order... Synoptic Problem is the term that has been used to describe the task in determining the precise relationships between the first three gospels. Scholars note the alternating array of agreements and disagreements among the three gospels and wonder why and how the disparities came to be. Why, on the one hand, do the Synoptic Gospels have so much material in common? About 90 percent of Mark's material is found in Matthew, while about 50 percent of Mark is found in Luke. In addition, nearly 235 verses in Matthew and Luke are similar to one another. In those places where agreement appears, incredible similarities can extend even to identical tense and mood for every word in an entire verse (or more). Given that Jesus probably spoke in Aramaic, these similarities are even more asounding. In some places, the Evangelists have identical parenthetical material," (Williams, Two Gospels From One, p. 22-23).
http://www.theopedia.com/Synoptic_problem
LilytheTheologian wrote:
8. If the divine Jesus of the gospels is a myth, who invented it? The first disciples? A later generation?
As you are presumably aware, the divinity of Jesus was debated within the Jesus Movement / Proto-Christianity for a couple centuries until it was decided in Roman church "councils"
I do not speculate on motives of others (particularly people living thousands of years ago, in a very different culture, under very different conditions, with little factual knowledge of nature.
However, in general motivations can include influence, power, status, finance, ego – any one of which might be sufficient for a person to tell stories that are not true or to exaggerate claims.
LilytheTheologian wrote:
Until the Emperor Constantine converted and issued the Edict of Milan in 313 CE, Christians were persecuted. We DO KNOW THIS even if we can't say with certainty how every apostle died. The early Christians were tortured, martyred, hated, and oppressed. They were fed to lions as sport in the Colosseum. Who goes to a bloody and painful death for a myth?
Many go to their death for a myth – not knowing that it is a myth. Japanese soldiers during WWII did exactly that for their "emperor god" Hirohito.
How long after the death of Jesus were Christians being fed to lions? A century? Two?
Were those martyred Christians residents of Judea or were they primarily elsewhere in the empire? If they were elsewhere and if they lived long after the time of Jesus, they would have no way of knowing whether the stories were true or myth.
LilytheTheologian wrote:
Some of the Christians denied Christ to save themselves from death, but none ever gave him up as a myth. The emperors never even asked them to give him up as a myth, so presumable, even the emperors accepted his divinity. They just didn't like people worshipping him.
Rulers, secular or sectarian, do not usually welcome competition.
LilytheTheologian wrote:
9. To study the NT correctly, one has to be conversant with the culture of first century Jerusalem, and I don't know who is and who is not here, however, first century Jews were not prone to believe myth. They were "demythologized" far more than other peoples were, and are. The Jews were adamantly and intolerably opposed to myth. No one on this earth would be LESS like to have confused a myth with fact than a first century Jew
Did First Century Jews likely believe tales told in their religious literature? Were the stories in Genesis, for example, NOT myths? Were they factual accounts?
Of course, most Jews of the era (and since) evidently rejected the claim that Jesus was the promised messiah – preferring their own myths rather than those of the upstart new competitive religion.
LilytheTheologian wrote:
10. Finally, anyone who has read the entire Bible with an OPEN MIND knows that NO MERE MAN could invent the accounts that surround the life of Jesus. Sure, there have been wildly imaginative authors like Tolkien, but even his books do not approach the NT. The entire Bible, written over thousands of years, hangs together as seamlessly as if it had been written in one go by the same man.
"Seamlessly"? "As if written by one man"? Let's explore that in a separate thread.
In fact, there is material here for multiple threads (one of which has been started).
LilytheTheologian wrote:
I know atheism, wicca, etc. are en vogue today, but that does not make Jesus' divinity untrue.
The issue is NOT proving the divinity untrue, but rather proving that it IS true (by those who make that claim). "I do not believe your stories" does not require proof and "Take my word for it (or his or this book) is not credible evidence in debate.
That is a claim – which is hereby challenged.
Another claim – of knowledge of what God allows. Bible stories may make such statements. Is there evidence that the stories are true?
LilytheTheologian wrote:
We all have free will. I do not deny anyone's right to reject God, however, as a theologian, I defend the faith when I see it attacked.
As a Non-Theist I challenge claims of knowledge about invisible, undetectable, proposed supernatural entities – thousands of them – ANY of which MAY be true – awaiting sound, verifiable information upon which to make a reasoned decision which, if any, are more than products of human imagination.
LilytheTheologian wrote:
Some people will believe me, more will not. Remember, only a "small remnant" will be chosen to join Christ in his kingdom. If I am among that "small remnant" then I am very blessed by God's eternal grace.
Why should anyone believe you about anything important? I will take your word about what you had for breakfast – but not about "gods" or what they supposedly did, said or require. I will not take your word that humans possess a "soul" or that there is an "afterlife." Those matters will require sound evidence.
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Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
