Foreknowledge and Free Will

[The Tanager]

I'm wondering what people here think of foreknowledge and free will. I've come across many people who feel that having knowledge of the future means that people cannot have free will. I don't see how that would necessarily be the case. I could (hypothetically, through time travel or whatever) know what your grandchildren will do on a certain date without actually making them make that choice. It would be more like me skipping ahead in watching a movie, rather than being the writer or director of the movie. But, often, people connect the two and believe that, if the future can be known that means one does not have control over their own life. What do you all think?

[Haven]

It's really the same situation with B, with the exception that, as far as we know, we are not able to determine the truth value of it at our present perspective. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a truth value "now" or that B's truth can't be known "now". I see that more as a physical or technological limitation we have as humans. It's certainly not a logical limitation.

What is your definition of knowledge here? Is it absolute certainty or something else?

If it's certainty, then it seems logically necessary for it to (not) rain in Atlanta on 10/31/2016, otherwise the fact wouldn't match the prediction and what you have wouldn't be knowledge. So yes, if you had knowledge of B today, then whether or not it would rain in Atlanta on Halloween next year would be determined.

[ttruscott]

...

Divine foreknowledge has created a deterministic situation for her.

You present the Greek philosophical position.

It is wrong if HE only knows what she will do because HE has predetermined what that will be. He determines therefore HE knows, the Biblical position for the few Christians who have escaped the pagan Greek philosophy as found in Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. in which HIS works refer to HIS creative decrees and it starts with the beginning of the world.

This leaves it open to a situation where if HE does NOT determine something HE will not know it. I contend that HE did not determine our free will decisions and so did not know what we would choose until we in fact made that choice. It also gives credence to the idea we do not have free will here on earth but our lives are determined in accord with our previously made free will decisions.

We are here to work out our redemption in fear and trembling from our already chosen positions about HIM, not to create our eternal relationship with HIM.

Peace, Ted

[Psalm139]

[Replying to post 62 by ttruscott]

Here are a few passages to show you that God predestined everything because He's the Creator of everything.

Acts 4:
27: for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28: to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place.

Revelation 17:
13: These are of one mind and give over their power and authority to the beast;
14: they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."

Romans 11:
3: "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have demolished thy altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life."
4: But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Ba'al."
5: So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6: But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7: What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
8: as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."

Acts 13:
47: For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, `I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'"
48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I Corinthians 2:
7: But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification.
8: None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Mark 13:
20: And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

John 15
16: You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

I Corinthians 1:
25: For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26: For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth;
27: but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong,
28: God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29: so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

II Thesalonians 2:
13: But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
14: To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you see that God is the one who chooses His prophets, saints and believers to participate in the gospel?

How can we, who have been chosen by God, have free will when He already predestined us to be chosen?

[ScotS]

What is your definition of knowledge here? Is it absolute certainty or something else?

I am using the term knowledge in the sense that you are calling absolute certainty. While evidence of some fact and beliefs regarding that fact are components of knowledge, the most important criteria is that the fact is actually true. Truth is a necessary condition for knowledge.

If it's certainty, then it seems logically necessary for it to (not) rain in Atlanta on 10/31/2016, otherwise the fact wouldn't match the prediction and what you have wouldn't be knowledge. So yes, if you had knowledge of B today, then whether or not it would rain in Atlanta on Halloween next year would be determined.

No, it is not logically necessary for it to rain on that date if I have knowledge that it will rain on that date. Logic only tells us that it WILL rain that day, not that it must do so. However it IS logically necessary that the fact and the knowledge MATCH. This is NOT the same thing.

Another example:

A: ScotS travels to Atlanta on 10/31/2016 and sees that it is raining.
B: God knows A.

Again, I don't know if A is true or not. But for the sake of argument, assume that this is indeed what I will do on that date. So A is true. Assuming an omniscient God, B is also true.

Your argument would be something like this:

1. A
2. B
3. It is not possible that B is true and A is false.
4. Therefore, if B is true, then A is necessarily true.

The implication of 4 being that I have no free will NOT to do A. It is logically necessary that I do A.

Am I characterizing your position fairly?

[Haven]

Another example:

A: ScotS travels to Atlanta on 10/31/2016 and sees that it is raining.
B: God knows A.

Again, I don't know if A is true or not. But for the sake of argument, assume that this is indeed what I will do on that date. So A is true. Assuming an omniscient God, B is also true.

Your argument would be something like this:

1. A
2. B
3. It is not possible that B is true and A is false.
4. Therefore, if B is true, then A is necessarily true.

The implication of 4 being that I have no free will NOT to do A. It is logically necessary that I do A.

Am I characterizing your position fairly?

Yes, that's an accurate description of my position (assuming that B obtains now, not just on 10/31/16).

[ScotS]

Another example:

A: ScotS travels to Atlanta on 10/31/2016 and sees that it is raining.
B: God knows A.

Again, I don't know if A is true or not. But for the sake of argument, assume that this is indeed what I will do on that date. So A is true. Assuming an omniscient God, B is also true.

Your argument would be something like this:

1. A
2. B
3. It is not possible that B is true and A is false.
4. Therefore, if B is true, then A is necessarily true.

The implication of 4 being that I have no free will NOT to do A. It is logically necessary that I do A.

Am I characterizing your position fairly?

Yes, that's an accurate description of my position (assuming that B obtains now, not just on 10/31/16).

I agree with you regarding premise 3. It's not possible for one to be true while the other is false. And that does imply there is a logical necessity involved. Instinctively, we assume that since B "happens" before A temporally that it has some sort of logical priority over A, making A logically necessary. But would it not be just as valid to state "If A is true, then necessarily B is true"? After all, God would only know A is true if A is indeed true.

In actuality, neither "If A then necessarily B" nor "If B then necessarily A" follow logically from 3. The problem arises mainly from the imprecision of our day to day language. "Two times X plus three" is ambiguous. It could mean "2x+3" or it could mean "2(x+3)". These are not equivalent. This is why we normally present math in a symbolic form. It is a similar issue with this logical argument.

3. It is not possible that B is true and A is false.

In this premise, what we are really saying is this: "it is not possible that [(B is true) AND (not-A is true)]" Symbolically it looks like this: ~⋄(B ∧ ~A). The "not possible" ( ~⋄) applies to the conjunctive statement, not to either A or B individually.

What follows from 3 is the statement: "Necessarily, if B then A" or ◻(B → A). The logical necessity applies to the entire conditional (if...then). This does NOT mean that either A or B are necessary themselves. What it does mean is that A and B must match. And indeed they must, since God's knowledge of my action at A is essentially defined by my action at A. So I am free to either do A or not do A, but whatever I choose, God will know.

[ttruscott]

...

How can we, who have been chosen by God, have free will when He already predestined us to be chosen?

We were predestinated to live out lives on earth after we chose to be sinners by our free will. And not everyone is an elect sinner chosen to heaven...some are eternally demonic and will end in hell by their free will decision.

Our lives were predestined, not the results of our true free will decisions or you teach the blasphemy that some were created already predestinated to hell, an abomination.

[Psalm139]

...

How can we, who have been chosen by God, have free will when He already predestined us to be chosen?

We were predestinated to live out lives on earth after we chose to be sinners by our free will. And not everyone is an elect sinner chosen to heaven...some are eternally demonic and will end in hell by their free will decision.

Our lives were predestined, not the results of our true free will decisions or you teach the blasphemy that some were created already predestinated to hell, an abomination.

It's impossible for man to have free will when we're living God's will. It's God's will be done, not man's will be done.

Ephesians 1
4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
9: For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ

As a sinner, I didn't have any choice to be a saint. He planned it before anything was created.

Romans 9:
28: We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
29: For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.
30: And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

II Thesalonians 2:
13: But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
14: To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians 1:
25: For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26: For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth;
27: but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong,
28: God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29: so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

John 15
16: You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

I Peter 1
1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado'cia, Asia, and Bithyn'ia,
2: chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

I Corinthians 2:
7: But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification.
8: None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

These passages prove that man doesn't have any free will.

The body that's writing this post is called a sinner but the knowledge that is being written in here is from the Spirit of God, which is my created existence.

[ttruscott]

...

These passages prove that man doesn't have any free will.

The body that's writing this post is called a sinner but the knowledge that is being written in here is from the Spirit of God, which is my created existence.

This from a guy who does not believe the Bible is the word of GOD. <sigh> On earth there is no free will does not change what happened by free will pre-earth.

The Holy Spirit does not blaspheme GOD's love and holiness.

[Hatuey]

[Replying to post 68 by Psalm139]

Agreed. Perhaps the opposite case can be made wit alternate scriptures, but the texts provided demonstrate that according to the bible, humans do NOT have free will.