Would you buy a car, a house, a yacht on just the seller's

[Zzyzx]

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Would you buy a car, a house, a yacht on just the seller's word (assuming you had access to necessary funds)?

Wouldn't you carefully check (or have checked) those items before paying substantial amounts of money? Of course you would, you're no fool – not gullible – not a rube who just fell off the pumpkin truck. Right?

Checking for truth and accuracy is wise before committing to a course of action or making significant decisions. Right?

If someone tells you he can walk on water you're not likely to believe that unless you can see it done without tricks. If someone tells you that he saw a person walking on water you are even less likely to believe (if you have a lick of sense). If an anonymous person claims that another anonymous person saw the trick "long ago and far away" it would seem as though that would be STRONGLY doubted – unless it was told in religion promotional literature and/or by prophets and priests.

Why set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept what is said by religion promoters or religious literature?

[Suzy]

Christians will come up with myriad reasons why you should believe that a man walked on water and no doubt you will get some here. The biggest one by far will be ‘faith’
Meanwhile atheists will just nod their heads and agree with you.

[Freddy_Scissorhands]

Why set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept what is said by religion promoters or religious literature?

Because the popular religions today have included a fail-save clause for exactly that problem.

"Don't test your god, that's just rude! And if you do, don't expect him to dance like a monkey, but wait, until your requests are being answered. If it happens imediatly, it was him. If it doesn't happen imediatly, but in a month or a year, it was also thanks to him. If it doesn't happen at all, it is also proof for him, because in that case, your request wasn't in your best interesst and he has a plan for you!"

This seems to be a reason why f.e. christianity can still stand strong today. Because it has come up with a system where, if it works, it's because their religion is right... and if it doesn't work, it's also because the religion is correct.

The religions who actually have presented a way of testing it (like "climp up that mountain, the gods live up there!") are not believed anymore, because there, you've actually had a way of testing and falsifying. The only religions that still can survive are the ones who have a loop-hole for every test we could suggest for them.

[bishblaize]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Would you wait for empirical evidence before deciding your new born baby was the most important thing in your life? We all make some important judgements in life on the basis of instinct not reason.

If you think that religious beliefs should be placed in the realm of fact and non-fact, logical and non-logical, with decisions held back until they can be assessed, then plainly you should review the claims of religious groups in those terms.

But lots of people think of spiritual matters in those terms. Assuming that they do and then judging them against those criteria is a category error.

(And because everyone keeps getting the wrong end of the stick, just to be clear i'm not christian nor do i believe in god or miracles)

[Freddy_Scissorhands]

Would you wait for empirical evidence before deciding your new born baby was the most important thing in your life? We all make some important judgements in life on the basis of instinct not reason.

Here is the difference between this and religous believes.
This believe (my baby is the most important thing in my life) is not a statement about a factual thing. It's a value assesment. And if you value something, this is not a matter of objectivity, it's the way you see it and you value it.
The believe that your new-born is the most important to you isn't an idea about his/her importance to the universe, or in an objective sense. It's simply how you personally percieve it.

But religous claims work on a different level.
F.e. there either is a god or there isn't. Your preference and how you value it doesn't have any effect on the question if he really exists.
The same with "god wants me to do that". This claim can be false, because if god doesn't exist, then he doesn't want you to do anything.
If you value the believe that god exists, than that's a different matter. That's again the assesment of the value you put on that thing, but most religious claims fall into the category of making actual, factual truth-claims.

[bishblaize]

[Replying to post 5 by Freddy_Scissorhands]

Religious claims are made by religious people. For a theist the existence of god is a belief therefore their claims are built on that pre-existing belief. Just as my beliefs about my son are built on the presupposition that he actually exists.

The points made in your second paragraph are only relevant for atheists, or maybe some agnostics. An atheist wouldn't start with asking whether Jesus walked on water, or whether Moses parted the Red Sea. Those things are assumed as impossible, based on other existing beliefs. But you can't expect theists (or not all of them anyway) to believe things in the same way.

[1213]

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Would you buy a car, a house, a yacht on just the seller's word (assuming you had access to necessary funds)?

Probably, if I would know the seller to be trustworthy as I know Jesus.

[Clownboat]

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Would you buy a car, a house, a yacht on just the seller's word (assuming you had access to necessary funds)?

Probably, if I would know the seller to be trustworthy as I know Jesus.

You know Jesus? Please ask him what I had for breakfast.
Tell him that I am trying to determine if one of his claimed followers is trustworthy or not.

I await his answer. Let's see if we can determine if you are trustworthy.

[OnceConvinced]

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Would you buy a car, a house, a yacht on just the seller's word (assuming you had access to necessary funds)?

Probably, if I would know the seller to be trustworthy as I know Jesus.

Is anyone as trustworthy as Jesus?

Now what if hundreds of people were trying to sell you the same car, many of who seem like real dodgy people. Some even seem crazy. I wonder whether you'd be so trusting then. I'm thinking you might wonder who has the right to sell the car and who doesn't. And then what if all these people are giving conflicting descriptions of the car? I'm guessing you'd want to check the car out for yourself first so you could see exactly what claims were true and which weren't.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 7 by 1213]

My wife and I are buying a house right now. The people we are buying from are nice trustworthy people. They have not lied to us nor given any reason for pause. We still got an appraisal and a home inspection. Indeed we paid good money for this service to. As it turns out there were some things they were unaware of that needed to be repaired in order for us to make a deal.

Also Jesus didn't write the bible so we are not comparing Jesus's trust value. Instead we have anonymous writers that we are assessing their trust value. Yeah. I am going to crank my skepticism to max on that. If I know the owners of a house that I am buying from and still pay a lot of money to verify the quality of the product they are selling I am going to be even more skeptical of an anonymous writer.