Homosexuality: A chosen trait, or gentetically aquired?

[The Persnickety Platypus]

This question is a major underlying factor of the general homosexual debate, the answer of which can narrow the scope in questioning its morality.



Are people born gay, or do they choose to be?
Can someone be blamed for their sexual orientation, or is it subject to factors we have no control over?

[Wyvern]

One can switch to one line of thinking to another if need be, after all.

With humans switching is not exactly an easy thing, two real world examples. My brother is an alcoholic, if my sister in law was not a nurse he would definately be dead due to his actions. He turned his life around and is now a lawyer and can even drink some alcohol now without losing control. My best friends brother is a crack addict, he had a very well paying job but he could not shake the addiction. Because of this he has lost everything, job, possessions, nearly all of his family, and yet he continues with his behavior even though he knows it is deleterious to his life. Nothing is as easy as one would like to think it is.

Those guys that walk on coal must say something about that then. :p

Walking on coals is a trick and anyone can do it once you know it.

Sexual orientation occurs in the head, just like anger and addiction. Why aren't they the same? Because you think no-one can control it, because that's what you were told?

Absolutely all these things occur in the head. Considering how all these things continue to happen it is obvious that control is no easy thing. Noone even questions a personality that is quick to anger and an addictive personality is now generally considered to be a slight genetic defect. However somehow sexual orientation is considered by the overtly religious to be nothing more than a choice, regardless of the evidence that shows that homosexuals exhibit formational differences in certain parts of the brain.

[scorpia]

I have never heard a convincing report of any supposed sexual orientation change occuring post-puberty. The outcome of therapy typically involves a homosexual person simply having to get over his immutable condition.

So what? Hey there's a first time for everything. And it doesn't matter if you've heard of it or not, your hearing does not affect it's possibility.

Anyway, let's drop the crying over homosexual people. Real sad, I'm sure, but I'm here to prove one can control themselves. Nothing more, nothing less. You'd think the name would have been a dead give-away. And more to the point, hetero/ homo people have been known to become paraphiliacs. So now you know that it is possible to change an orientation somewhat.

There is absolutely no biological component that offers a venue for independent descision making to occur (as pertaining to our current context).

So what now, you're saying we don't have original thought?

Well I don't know, maybe some people out there just don't use it. I, however, will do my best to.

With humans switching is not exactly an easy thing, two real world examples. My brother is an alcoholic, if my sister in law was not a nurse he would definately be dead due to his actions. He turned his life around and is now a lawyer and can even drink some alcohol now without losing control. My best friends brother is a crack addict, he had a very well paying job but he could not shake the addiction. Because of this he has lost everything, job, possessions, nearly all of his family, and yet he continues with his behavior even though he knows it is deleterious to his life. Nothing is as easy as one would like to think it is.

Well then I guess it'd be a matter of will.

It is my opinion that it should be possible to shake such an addiction. One must always hope. To give up hope that you can makes the addiction much more controlling.

However somehow sexual orientation is considered by the overtly religious to be nothing more than a choice,

You do realise I'm not saying that all of them choose to be what they are, but it is possible for them to learn a bit more a be able to make a choice in the future.

regardless of the evidence that shows that homosexuals exhibit formational differences in certain parts of the brain.

And people say the same thing about religious folk. That it's genetic. maybe then, if it's genetic, in the way you think, then people have no choice but to be religious.

[melikio]

Scorp: One can switch to one line of thinking to another if need be, after all.

Wy: With humans switching is not exactly an easy thing, two real world examples. My brother is an alcoholic, if my sister in law was not a nurse he would definately be dead due to his actions. He turned his life around and is now a lawyer and can even drink some alcohol now without losing control. My best friends brother is a crack addict, he had a very well paying job but he could not shake the addiction. Because of this he has lost everything, job, possessions, nearly all of his family, and yet he continues with his behavior even though he knows it is deleterious to his life. Nothing is as easy as one would like to think it is.

What Wyvern gets right here, is that for a a homosexual to just "change" their sexual-orientation, isn't just a mere change of mind. Scorpia's implication is ridiculous, and just about any mental health profession would know the truth.

Scorp: Sexual orientation occurs in the head, just like anger and addiction. Why aren't they the same? Because you think no-one can control it, because that's what you were told?

Wy: Absolutely all these things occur in the head. Considering how all these things continue to happen it is obvious that control is no easy thing. Noone even questions a personality that is quick to anger and an addictive personality is now generally considered to be a slight genetic defect. However somehow sexual orientation is considered by the overtly religious to be nothing more than a choice, regardless of the evidence that shows that homosexuals exhibit formational differences in certain parts of the brain.

Wyvern is more correct again. And I will emphasize that people who view homosexuality from a 3rd person perspective, must consider being more reasonable and compassionate toward those who must view it from a more personal position.

No, it isn't easy to change anything so close to the core of one's being. When I was younger (teens-30's), controlling what I did with my body was more difficult than it is now; probably due to my age more than anything else.

My homosexual-orientation is something I would have gladly traded for a heterosexual-orientation (going all the way back to my teens). And the struggle I had in TRYING TO CHANGE IT is nothing anyone would, should or could take lightly, if they really knew what it entailed. I only stopped crying about not being able to CHANGE that about 5 years ago. It's not easy for most people to "try", and it's not something the majority of people actually accomplish; and I've rarely heard of any homosexual who completely eliminates the sexual feelings a homosexual typically possesses.

At least, I think it would be fair to treat homosexual people (in general) with the same respect and compassion afforded most other "sinners" in this world. Wyvern made the comparison nicely; anyone who doesn't see the reasoning really should.

And it is no amazing thing (considering what people now know), that homosexual people are beginning to ask/demand the rights and protections they really shouldn't have been denied for thousands of years. They should not have to their homosexuality "approved", in order to be treated fairly and compassionately. I think it is certainly clear that the problems generated by mistreating homosexuals, eliminates such treament from the list of real or decent solutions. Homosexuals are "people", not rab rats or violent or sexual criminals. And while at some points in time homosexuality was a "crime" or mental illness itself, it is reasonable to understand that such classificatons today would be ridiculously inappropriate.

It is to a point now where homosexuals are right to seek protection under the law, as some have seen fit to mistreat them out of sheer hatred or fear (which is unfounded in the vast majority of cases).

I continue to understand, in the context of some people's view of religion, that homosexuality remains an unapproved behavior. A genetic "cause" isn't likely to explain the whole picture (they typically do not), there are external causes most likely. But the time where homosexuality and those most affected by it are pushed out of sight or mistreated because of their sexual-orientation needs to end, completely. I have nothing against reviewing the effects of any given person's behavior heterosexual or homosexual... for some individuals leave VICTIMS in their wake (criminals and the irresponsible), and justice would dictate such behavior needs to be attended to.

But the religious/moral pressures PUSHED onto those who just happen to have a homosexual-orientation are usually unfounded and very often UN-Christian, especially when such "Christian" responses to homosexuality are checked for appropriateness and fairness. Hypocrisy is not a "small" problem for Christians, as it concerns dealing with homosexuality as Christ would compel them to; much of what is POPULAR to do to homosexuals, isn't commensurate with that which Jesus taught. The selective cruelty (hypocrisy) of many who would be against homosexuals, are often wrapped in their own sins of hatred, omission and other things which stem from a culture where it is typically deemed "right" to mistreat or discriminate against homosexual people.

A genetic cause is likely part of the answer to the "problems" being discussed by many today, but I do not see that Christian people must WAIT for such "answers" to do something better (than has been done traditionally) for all homosexual people and other sinners.

-Mel-

[scorpia]

No, it isn't easy to change anything so close to the core of one's being.

Never meant to imply that THAt would have been. I have already noted that it would take effort.

[melikio]

No, it isn't easy to change anything so close to the core of one's being.

Never meant to imply that THAt would have been. I have already noted that it would take [effort].

I know you didn't intend to imply that, but your words DO imply that.

And I'd like to know just what you THINK it is that "effort" would entail?
(Even EXPERTS don't know what it takes for a person to manage such "change".)

None of this, is as you seem to sound-off about it; it's just one small notch from handing out "false" hope; as many Christians have and continue to do. It's as if those who aren't homosexual, are willing to hand out some tokens (to make themselves feel better), which a homosexual person gets to play the sexual-orientation SLOT MACHINE of life.

The reality is that those who are motivated and willing to change, can change, but most aren't successful in doing so. Is there something genetic behind it all? Maybe.

But the main issues have to be dealt with practically, because despite what we know of homosexuality, not many are able to change their sexual-orientation. And fewer people who are "heterosexual" have even a small clue about what real "effort" it takes to pursue such a massive goal.

So, what I take issue with in your comments, is that they are based upon a somewhat "sterile" view (as in a lab), compared to what people really have to deal with as homosexuals. Mental health professionals, and social scientists explain what I know better that I typically do. But I can easily say that your comments represent a very simplistic approach to an issue that is more complex than most people are led to understand. To a homosexual person who has endure even a little of what I have in life, you should not be surprized that someone might seem to jump down your throat, when you give the impression that one's sexual-orientation is about WANTING IT BAD ENOUGH.

I can assure you (or at least contend about the same), that I WANTED IT likely as much (probably more), as you might want it for those that you are concerned about. But you have to be realistic about this: How hard/long would YOU struggle with the equivalent in your own life (that would be wanting to switch to being "gay")?

How much effort would it take, to change someone's sexual-orientation and/or natural preferences over to the OTHER direction?

Is it possible to do that with success, in a systematic fashion?

WHY go to such extreme measures to CHANGE a homosexual person, if they are functioning and productive members of a given society?

The question may seem ludicrous to you, but it isn't to a homosexual or a scientist who tries to make sense of this issue (perhaps on a daily basis). Hundreds of alter calls, years (decades) of celibacy and thousands of prayers didn't "fix" me; what additional "effort" is on your list for other homosexuals to try? (Please be realistic.)

The best answer I have for a "Chrsitian" to any of the questions above is:

Some things are soley within the providence of God and not within our span of control.

-Mel-

[scorpia]

None of this, is as you seem to sound-off about it; it's just one small notch from handing out "false" hope; as many Christians have and continue to do.

Hope can be a fool's game or the salvation of us all. Your choice.

To a homosexual person who has endure even a little of what I have in life, you should not be surprized that someone might seem to jump down your throat, when you give the impression that one's sexual-orientation is about WANTING IT BAD ENOUGH.

And where, pray tell, was that impression given?

I can assure you (or at least contend about the same), that I WANTED IT likely as much (probably more), as you might want it for those that you are concerned about. But you have to be realistic about this: How hard/long would YOU struggle with the equivalent in your own life (that would be wanting to switch to being "gay")?

I wouldn't say that I've wanted to be gay. However I have spent most of my life disliking the notion of having to be infatuated with the male populace and having them have all the power, and in a sense, I guess I have spent minute of every year of my more adult life struggling which would give you a clue about how hard I'd do it.

Is it possible to do that with success, in a systematic fashion?

It is my hope so. To do it, it would require some time of self-study. None of this "Oh no I like this or that I must be bad." But asking yourself the question "Hey, why in the world do I want this?" Not so much "Was it something I chose", not that, but "What possible factors have caused me to become sub-conscously attracted to this or that?" It is my theory that any sexuality is caused by identifying something or someone as a source of pleasure. Nowadays I ask myself the question "Why this? Is there something that I've gone through which has caused this?"

But of course, doing this is up to you.

The best answer I have for a "Chrsitian" to any of the questions above is:

Some things are soley within the providence of God and not within our span of control.

I guess that would be right. And hey even though homosexulaity is listed as a sin so are many other things and God is forgiving. Stealing for example is wrong but people may have a good reason for stealing and I'm certain God would forgive such a person, as he would anyone who's gay. For all I know a guy might have some suppressed memory where some girl was a total jerk to him or a woman had a husband who was abusive and I for one wouldn't blame a person for changing their orientation for such reasons. Hey I wouldn't even recommend that you try this God loves you no matter what and the random gay guy at least teaches some more horrible women out there a lesson. No, this is control for it's own sake and it's something I want.

[melikio]

Scorpia,

Whatever the final, best or absolute answer/s may be, I really don't believe that human beings possess them. I've done what I could in my own life, and I can't explain all that I've been through either. Some things only God knows or understands (if you believe in Him, that should make sense).

The most I can hope for, is to live in peace with others, as much as it is possible. Science can help that to happen, and thus I'd like to see it learn and reveal as much as possible about all of this, even if it steps on the toes of some people's faith. (I do not believe the Bible has the "perfect" take on all of this.) Mankind needs better answers than it has (imho).

And I don't think "Christians" or others are going to forever be free to RIDE the backs of homosexuals for this "sin", there is a lot more to the solutions mankind really needs, than just blaming others or highlighting the sins we might feel "disconnected" from.

-Mel-

[melikio]

To do it, it would require some time of self-study.

Scorpia, have you EVER been to a therapist?

How well do you think you can actually "study" (analyze) yourself? That is, the deepest stuff that makes you who/what you are as a person?

"Oh no I like this or that I must be bad." But asking yourself the question "Hey, why in the world do I want this?"

Do YOU think that a homosexual person hasn't asked themselves this question? And do you think that they cannot manage this calmly and reverently within themselves during or after many years of "struggle"?
(Where have you been?)

At what point do you believe a human being who has been struggling with homosexuality, should hold onto their "sanity", rather than trying to change something they may NEVER be able to change? And it is a FACT that all homosexuals cannot be "changed".

Not so much "Was it something I chose", not that, but "What possible factors have caused me to become sub-conscously attracted to this or that?"

I've been in therapy before. Maybe you should go see what they'll tell you about the effectiveness of certain forms of self analysis. (It isn't always beneficial or effective.) Even plain old "guilt" and "shame" have their limits; faith, hope, love, patience, grace and peace are the best appraoch to "sanity" that I personally know of. I can do a pretty good job of self analysis, but there ARE corners within me that I really don't know, and don't pretend to.

If I can go day-to-day and still really care about other people, I figure I'm doing something right.

It is my theory that any sexuality is caused by identifying something or someone as a source of pleasure.

That may work for you bag-of-theories, but there is FAR MORE to human sexuality than that; and you should be intensely aware of that (I think).

Nowadays I ask myself the question "Why this? Is there something that I've gone through which has caused this?"

I've read the Bible; we (all human beings) are fundamentally FLAWED according to what it says. I also read that God is love, and if not for His grace we'd be NOTHING but fodder for a giant toaster He constructed in some eternal place we can barely fathom.

But of course, doing this is up to you.

Now, how many homosexual people are really depending upon others, to define their struggles for them? (Few to none.)

You cannot even come close to knowing what I have sacrificed or denied myself over the lifetime I've lived so far; even my descriptions lack in conveying the human cost of the "struggle". You think you know, but I'm almost sure you do not understand much of what I'm saying.

And people are borderline foolish, to think that homosexual people are just off in la-la-land, having sex and never considering the basic things you are indicating.

Truth is: We DO THINK DEEPLY. How could most of us NOT think heavily and be introspective over the period of a lifetime (especially for those of us who did have a conflict between religion and our sexual-orientation).

I've noticed that some "Christians" enjoy trying to "simplify" something that might LITERALLY drive them crazy, if they themselves had to deal with it over any real period of time. Face it, while a "heterosexual" Christian may struggle with lust, or a bout with premarital sex for a period of time, they know little of what they so casually EXPECT homosexuals to do within and about their own lives. And this is evident, because the biblical view many are handed, they try to run with it and become annoyed when they find out everything is deeper and wider in scope, than they were ever told (or was ever indicated in the Scripture, concerning homosexuality).

Now, I'm sure there are some homosexual people who do give a damn about the Bible or what Christians think, but it isn't my job, or yours to actually change those people. Heck, it's not even my job to convince you of what I believe. As I said before, the best I can do as one human being (who happens to be homosexual), is to live at peace, promote love and treat my enemies as Jesus requested. I'm certain I can't FIX (change) my gayness, and after nearly 38 years of struggle, I don't WANT to "fix" it. It was literally making me a nut-case, trying to alter something I later found was likely unalterable (outside of a literal miracle). Yes, I've heard of limbs growing back, but we HAVE to admit, that such miracles are rare; and so it really is with tweaking someone's sexual-orientation.

God can do a lot of awesome things, but He really doesn't grant every request we make; I know that and I have accepted that for many many years. God knows I'm gay; He knows I wanted it fixed (with ALL MY HEART) and He knows I think this is the way I was meant to be (at least for THIS lifetime.

-Mel-

[scorpia]

How well do you think you can actually "study" (analyze) yourself? That is, the deepest stuff that makes you who/what you are as a person?

Better than anyone else can. There is only one person that can analyse your thoughts, and that is you.

Do YOU think that a homosexual person hasn't asked themselves this question? And do you think that they cannot manage this calmly and reverently within themselves during or after many years of "struggle"?

I think that they ask a lot of questions that vary. This one would be the most relavent to the task at hand.

And it is a FACT that all homosexuals cannot be "changed".

If believe the battle will be lost, then your belief will make it so.

I can do a pretty good job of self analysis, but there ARE corners within me that I really don't know, and don't pretend to

Then why not learn more about them. The more knowledge, the better.

That may work for you bag-of-theories, but there is FAR MORE to human sexuality than that; and you should be intensely aware of that (I think).

Like what? Sexuality is a program for the animal. And like a computer program it's "stupid" (the program not the person that it effects) and probably less to it than what the general populace would have one believe.

You cannot even come close to knowing what I have sacrificed or denied myself over the lifetime I've lived so far; even my descriptions lack in conveying the human cost of the "struggle". You think you know, but I'm almost sure you do not understand much of what I'm saying.

And I'm certain you have not understood much of what I said, as I am certain that you have no idea what I've been through.

And people are borderline foolish, to think that homosexual people are just off in la-la-land, having sex and never considering the basic things you are indicating.

Truth is: We DO THINK DEEPLY. How could most of us NOT think heavily and be introspective over the period of a lifetime (especially for those of us who did have a conflict between religion and our sexual-orientation).

I've noticed that some "Christians" enjoy trying to "simplify" something that might LITERALLY drive them crazy, if they themselves had to deal with it over any real period of time. Face it, while a "heterosexual" Christian may struggle with lust, or a bout with premarital sex for a period of time, they know little of what they so casually EXPECT homosexuals to do within and about their own lives. And this is evident, because the biblical view many are handed, they try to run with it and become annoyed when they find out everything is deeper and wider in scope, than they were ever told (or was ever indicated in the Scripture, concerning homosexuality).

And do you really think that this is my POV?

God can do a lot of awesome things, but He really doesn't grant every request we make; I know that and I have accepted that for many many years. God knows I'm gay; He knows I wanted it fixed (with ALL MY HEART) and He knows I think this is the way I was meant to be (at least for THIS lifetime.

And di you not read the latter part of my last post?

[melikio]

Mel:
How well do you think you can actually "study" (analyze) yourself? That is, the deepest stuff that makes you who/what you are as a person?

Scorpia: Better than anyone else can. There is only one person that can analyse your thoughts, and that is you.

There is a reason why many medical doctors do not diagnose themselves; and the same goes for people in the metal health fields.

If you ever go to a good therapist AND cooperate by answering questions asked, the person analyzing you (from a more objective point of view than you could ever muster), will find nooks and crannies in your mind, that you would probably miss, using a less-objective "self" diagnosis.

And BTW, therapists DO NOT make decisions for people, they only seek to help people's minds to THINK more clearly (even more objectively). I would agree that prayer/meditation can help in many many cases, but some things cannot be handled "properly" from a first-person point of view; EVERYONE has blind-spots and a good therapist can see many problems that you don't even realize are there (just by checking the WAY you think; they don't need to know your thoughts to know HOW you think).

I read what you said before, but there doesn't seem to be much that was practical for me to regard. I see a lot of laymen (who aren't homosexuals), assuming many things, that they really don't understand about homosexuals.

Sorry if it seems I'm being hostile or difficult. I'm bowing out right now, from the direction the argument is going. And I'll just reitereate, that genetic factors plus other environmental components, are likely what causes homosexuality; many scientists' conclusions I've read indicate that is the most accurate answer for the time being.

I've read the NARTH stuff, and other things generated by those who believe in various forms of reparative therapies. Their conclusions and methods are as questionable as anything else out here. I can agree that they may have answers for some people, but certainly not for the majority of those who find themselves to be homosexual in this world.

Tony Campolo has a balanced and valid approach to this topic:

http://www.radicalcongruency.com/ec04/campolo1.mpg

http://www.radicalcongruency.com/ec04/campolo2.mpg

http://www.radicalcongruency.com/ec04/campolo3.mpg

What it amounts to for me (my view), is that Christians really do need to find better ways of dealing with homosexual people; right now, the effect is about as negative as it can get.

Extremists and gay-haters should be criticized by all reasonable "Christian" people. At the very least, find a way to extend a non-threatening hand to those who have struggled most, if not all of their lives. I mean, it's a massive understatement, to say that many prove that they condone the hating of homosexual people, by remaining silent or willfully ignorant of the abuse that is systematically directed AT homosexual people. Gay people see the hatred readily, and that is why they seek legal protections (much more vigorously than they seek to convince hateful or bigoted people that they deserve those "human" rights).

-Mel-