Racist Symbols

[MagusYanam]

I bring up this topic because yesterday on the way to the bookstore I saw a Dodge Dakota truck with Rhode Island plates and a big Confederate battle flag bumper sticker stuck on the back window. And I wondered to myself, why would any Rhode Islander worth his sea salt put on such a display? That flag represents slavery, sectional intrigue and after that segregation and racism. It's an ugly symbol which, like the swastika, has outlived any useful purpose and serves only to threaten and intimidate ethnic minorities.

Germany has laws against the display of Nazi symbols such as the swastika and the wolfsangel, though it is perhaps not a comparable situation. The Confederacy died (or should have) over a hundred and forty years ago; Nazi Germany was defeated sixty years ago. There are Germans still living today with the guilt of the Third Reich. The Confederacy was, by and large, a regional phenomenon; Nazism affected the entire continent of Europe.

Still, should we demand that such a symbol be removed from display? The Georgia state flag removed the Confederate emblem in 2003, but it is still retained in canton on the state flag of Mississippi and Confederate symbolism is used in the flags of other states of the old South. Should the government disallow its own agents from using such divisive and intimidating symbols?

[MagusYanam]

No, you are TAKING it that way. Unless the guy comes up to you and says they support lawlessness, white supremacism, slavery and segragation, you haven't got a clue what he supports. You are making an assumption based on your biases, nothing more.

I did say he was within his rights as a private citizen. My question was aimed at the state of Mississippi.

But pray tell. What would drive one to display the Confederate battle flag, if not sectional intrigue or racism? What other purpose does it have, and what else does it mean? As a rational person, I can't believe a person spontaneously buys a bumper sticker or a flag for no reason whatsoever.

So how about we all get offended at the Christian cross and have it banned? After all, it's been used for all manner of horrors over the years. Let's just ban it. Is that fine with you?

I don't think this applies as a reductio ad absurdum. Yes, the cross was originally a torture implement and was used for all manner of horrors, as you say, but it came to symbolise something else - victory over death. Instead of being fearing torture and death upon it, the kerygmatic Christians carried it as a symbol of hope.

Unless you can point me to some other purpose behind that symbol of bigotry and anarchy, I would say the Confederate flag should be treated as an entirely different issue.

[Jose]

Y'know, we have this dispute often around here. Much as I agree that the Confed. Flag is a racist symbol, it remains a matter of free speech. There are lots of good ol' boys who have the flag on their trucks, who oddly enough don't seem to think of it as the least bit racist. I suppose we could analyze the Confederacy and think about other aspects of it besides slavery...there were many, actually. One, I suppose, is the concept of being from The South. There's that "Southern Hospitality" stuff, and all (even if slavery seems somewhat inhospitable). There aren't really any other symbols that tie Southerners together that I know of.

I think I end up on the side of lumping it with other things, like the ten commandments. Those, too, are within one's rights to display as a private citizen, even if they may be offensive to some people. In both cases, however, it is inappropriate to use them in ways that would suggest that they are endorsed by the government.

We have, in one of our university buildings, a large mural depicting various images from Indiana history. One, which periodically draws intense criticism, is a KKK rally. Compared to a mere flag, that really is offensive. Yet, the conversation has always ended with amicable agreement that it should remain--as a reminder to us honkies about how incredibly stupid we have been for incredibly stupid reasons.

What if we look at racist symbols the way Carlos Mencia would? It's not so much a symbol of hate as a symbol of personal idiocy--a way to mark the nutcakes so it's easier to keep an eye on 'em.

[Cathar1950]

Good point Jose.
I would not want to put a symbol or label on any one or law that forces any one to wear one. But if they want to wear one find. It does help you keep an eye on them stange groups.

[Cephus]

But pray tell. What would drive one to display the Confederate battle flag, if not sectional intrigue or racism? What other purpose does it have, and what else does it mean? As a rational person, I can't believe a person spontaneously buys a bumper sticker or a flag for no reason whatsoever.

The Confederate Flag symbolized what was, for a short time anyhow, a seperate nation. It's no more a racist symbol than the German flag is a Nazi symbol. A lot of people in the South are, for whatever reason, proud of their heritage and just because the south might have had racist beliefs and policies in the past, that's not all it was, any more than having a Christian cross means that you're anti-semetic or pro-rape and destruction, simply because that's what the Crusades did under that symbol, any more than flying the American flag means you are in favor of genocide, which is certainly what American troops did to American Indians under that flag.

[McCulloch]

The Confederate Flag symbolized what was, for a short time anyhow, a seperate nation.

A separate nation who's separateness and identity was based on their peculiar institution, racially based slavery.

It's no more a racist symbol than the German flag is a Nazi symbol.

The Germans wisely changed their flag. The flag of the German Reich included the symbol not previously associated with Germany as a nation but associated with Nazism. In the same way, the Confederate Flag was invented and designed and legitimately used only in during the war to protect the South's right to keep slaves.

A lot of people in the South are, for whatever reason, proud of their heritage and just because the south might have had racist beliefs and policies in the past, that's not all it was, any more than having a Christian cross means that you're anti-semetic or pro-rape and destruction, simply because that's what the Crusades did under that symbol, any more than flying the American flag means you are in favor of genocide, which is certainly what American troops did to American Indians under that flag.

Perhaps they should use either antebellum symbols or new symbols not tainted with slavery. The Christian cross has been associated with many good things before and since the crusades. The American flag has been associated with many good things and not just the genocide of the First Nations people. Further, it is the flag of record for the USA. The Confederate flag, like the Nazi swastika, is only associated with the war.

[Cephus]

Hate to say it but people are just as welcome to fly a flag bearing a swastika if they want to. That's one of the basic freedoms we enjoy in the United States. If you don't like it, then don't look at it, but sheesh, there's a lot of whining about absolutely nothing going on around here.

[MagusYanam]

If you don't like it, then don't look at it, but sheesh, there's a lot of whining about absolutely nothing going on around here.

If you don't like the debate and you really think it is 'a lot of whining about absolutely nothing', then don't participate in it. It's your right.

But at the same time, I don't think you can make the argument that the Confederate flag is not a racist symbol. McCulloch notes correctly that it was designed and used specifically to perpetuate an institution of oppression against black people. And its uses since then have been primarily associated with similar kinds of oppression. It was used by anti-civil rights groups whose purpose was to prevent desegregation of schools and other public institutions.

Hate to say it but people are just as welcome to fly a flag bearing a swastika if they want to. That's one of the basic freedoms we enjoy in the United States.

Fine. I'm not disagreeing with you on the rights of private citizens. But my question in particular dealt with the state government of Mississippi, and I don't think the freedom of expression can belong to a corporate entity, particularly a corporate entity of government, the way it can and does to an individual. I'd like to hear what you have to contribute on this subject.

I realise I didn't clarify that question with my first post what my meaning was, and I apologise. But I thought I had made it clear since that my purpose was in dealing with government agencies, not with private citizens.

[upallnite]

I live in NC. Maybe because of being raised in the south I view the confederate flag difrently.

Maybe I should tell my black neighbor to take that flag off of his truck because he is opressing himself. Silly guy thinks he is making a statment about state rights.

I think of state rights, southern pride, heritage, good ol' boys having fun, and a host of other non-racist themes when I see a confederate flag. But I do not put a sticker of it on my cars because I an a bald white guy and know that some person will think I am a nazi.

Any Germans in here? I was in Germany for a few weeks and found it strange that a large part of their history has been erased from the landscape. I wanted to see some of the place I had only read about in history books but they were obscure and hard to find or destoried.

With all that being said I will allow it to be banned when all other symbols that can be associated with somethin negative are also banned.

[MagusYanam]

I think of state rights, southern pride, heritage, good ol' boys having fun, and a host of other non-racist themes when I see a confederate flag.

Okay, that's somewhat the answer I expected. But think carefully: what states' rights are (or were) being advanced through that symbol, and whose pride and heritage does it celebrate? I know the pro-euthanasia movement in Oregon used the Confederate flag for a brief while before they wisely removed it after considering the sinister causes which hid themselves behind that particular banner of 'states' rights'.

Of course, I look at the south now and I see some of the same factors at play as have been during the past two hundred years. Cheap labour (no longer slave labour, but the same kind of economic structures tend to form with similar evils perpetuated on poor families) remains the staple of the southern economy. Republican politicians in particular appeal to racism in the south because they know it will win them votes. And then of course there is the entire 'religious right' thing. It hasn't died since the Civil Rights movement it originally opposed succeeded in securing many essential rights for minority groups - it's just shifted its focus. Are these things to be proud of?

Any Germans in here? I was in Germany for a few weeks and found it strange that a large part of their history has been erased from the landscape. I wanted to see some of the place I had only read about in history books but they were obscure and hard to find or destoried.

The entire Germany thing is kind of funny - in spite (and to some extent because) of all the rules and regulations, the safeguards put in place to make sure Nazism doesn't create another horror like the Second World War, they remain painfully aware of its influence in their history. Our family hosted a German student for a few months - and after having gotten to know him enough to ask sensitive questions, we ascertained that Germany still teaches its own history to its own youth very thoroughly, and instills in them the idea that it has become their responsibility in particular to ensure that nothing like Nazism ever happens again. It was the primary reason Gerhard Schroeder opposed the Iraq War - something he saw as disturbingly similar to a latter-day Poland - so vehemently, and it was the reason the majority of Germans supported him in that stance. I personally think the same sort of responsibility should be taught to American students, north and south, and I don't see it being done. We should ensure that nothing like slavery or the post-Reconstruction white-supremacist reign of terror is ever allowed to happen again.