THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE LI'BLE TO READ IN THE BIBLE

[KCKID]

Why are SO many Christians hung up on homosexuality? While the average Christian would be hard pressed to locate such a text in their Bibles if asked, they would undoubtedly say “Because it’s a sin according to the Bible.� I personally find such a response difficult to accept and rather strongly suspect that one’s ‘religious belief’ on this issue is NOT the driving force behind their aversion/condemnation of homosexuality. I mean, if Christians REALLY desire to condemn ‘sin’ as they perceive it they could give homosexuals a break and instead have a field day targeting the many other human behaviors going on within society that God appears to hate. But …they don’t . . .well certainly not with the same zeal they do toward homosexuality.

So, what is going on here? Does the Bible really condemn sexual relations between consenting adults of the same gender? Or, does the Bible not address the matter of homosexuality at all …or, at least, not as we today recognize homosexuality? Would the Bible authors have even been aware of one’s innate sexuality as well as the complexities surrounding sexuality in general? Or, in simple terms, would they, as with many males of today, have regarded some males as 'effeminate' (or ‘sissies’) based on both ignorance and their own perceived cultural image of the ‘alpha male’? Or, if these authors were considered to be writing by divine authority, might we then say that God is the instigator of such ignorance and has allowed this ignorance to persist from generation to generation?

My main question in this thread is: of the ‘thimble-full’ of scriptures that are commonly used by Christians to condemn homosexuality (sexual attraction/desire directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex), how many of these texts might be considered to be far too ambiguous (open to several possible meanings or interpretations) to have caused such a furor within Christendom in general and specifically resulted in the division of a number of present-day Christian denominations? Can these few scriptures be analyzed so accurately that they can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to condemn homosexuality as we refer to the term today? I say no …they cannot. I’ve given my reasons in the past and will do so again if challenged.

Please discuss the below scriptures, as best you can, exegetically, i.e.
observation: what do the passages say?
interpretation: what do the passages mean?
correlation: how do the passages relate to the topic of homosexuality as we define it today?
application: how should these passages affect your/my life?

Note: I've purposely used the NIV for the following texts.

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (NIV)

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire . . .etc. (NIV)

Should there be other related Bible texts to the topic feel free to present them based on the above criteria for analysis. I purposely omitted the Sodom and Gomorrah saga since it's been done to death and quite clearly has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. However, likewise feel free to present that strange tale for discussion should you find it to be relevant.

[Danmark]

The whole gay agenda thing is a very recent invention in history.

This is utter nonsense.
"In regard of male homosexuality such documents depict a world in which relationships with women and relationships with youths were the essential foundation of a normal man's love life. Same-sex relationships were a social institution variously constructed over time and from one city to another. The formal practice, an erotic yet often restrained relationship between a free adult male and a free adolescent, was valued for its pedagogic benefits and as a means of population control, though occasionally blamed for causing disorder. Plato praised its benefits in his early writings but in his late works proposed its prohibition."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_homosexuality

Men having sexual relationships with men has been a normal, accepted cultural practice since the dawn of recorded history. Arguments for it and against it have been around just as long. Plato, for example, wrote on both sides of the argument.
You simply and quite literally don't know what you are talking about, despite the fact that this subject appears to be your central, if not your only focus.

[99percentatheism]

Danmark

Finally !!!!!!!

One of you come out about pederasty. No ambiguity and no evasion.

That is what you are referencing as part of the gay agenda right? It's history, as you put it? Yet, even in ancient Greece, where the pederasty you present was a societal issue, a man on the receiving end (eh-hem) of the same gender sex acts was barred from becoming a citizen of Greece.

You may want to look up the word intercrural. Or better yet: diamērizein.

But, trying link ancient pederasty with the modern gay agenda is something I would recommend that you not do around your workplace. And certainly not on TV or on the radio. It's bad enough just trying to avoid being part of a gay marriage these days without being sued. You try to bring the history of pederasty and the gay movement to its proper place in history and it will cause activists to become unhinged.

The whole gay agenda thing is a very recent invention in history.

This is utter nonsense.

It's an absolute fact. And I do believe that even the LGBT community itself hails the Stonewall riots as the beginning of the movement. That's in the 20th century by the way. Although, the Mattachine Society in Chicago and the gay liberation movement in Germany predate the Stonewall riots (riots that happened at a bar that ran a gay-youth prostitution ring). Please, please, by all means research my references.

Here: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... th-century

A snippet:

Homosexual men and women were given voice in 1897 with the founding of the Scientific-Humanitarian Committee (Wissenschaftlich-humanitäres Komitee; WhK) in Berlin. Their first activity was a petition to call for the repeal of Paragraph 175 of the Imperial Penal Code (submitted 1898, 1922, and 1925). The committee published emancipation literature, sponsored rallies, and campaigned for legal reform throughout Germany, as well as in The Netherlands and Austria, developing some 25 local chapters by 1922

- http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... #toc281888

"In regard of male homosexuality such documents depict a world in which relationships with women and relationships with youths were the essential foundation of a normal man's love life. Same-sex relationships were a social institution variously constructed over time and from one city to another.

Let's see that again? . . . relationships with YOUTH were the essential foundation of a normal man's love life." You mean a normal gay man's love life don't you? Even the most ardent gay activist here says that homosexuality is an orientation that straights cannot feel.

The formal practice, an erotic yet often restrained relationship between a free adult male and a free adolescent, was valued for its pedagogic benefits and as a means of population control, though occasionally blamed for causing disorder. Plato praised its benefits in his early writings but in his late works proposed its prohibition."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_homosexuality

Platonic love. Do the math. What you are advocating is pederasty. AND with no doubt about it, Christians in the New Testament were opposed to "arsenokoitai." A word invented by Paul that denounced male and male sexual behavior.

Men having sexual relationships with men has been a normal, accepted cultural practice since the dawn of recorded history.

Yes, detestable practices of the people's that God said to avoid. The God of Abraham. The God Jesus said he was.

Arguments for it and against it have been around just as long. Plato, for example, wrote on both sides of the argument.

Pederasty. What you are referencing is pederasty. Adult men with with young boys. That is an absolute historical fact.

You simply and quite literally don't know what you are talking about, despite the fact that this subject appears to be your central, if not your only focus.

Are you now proclaiming that within the 21st century gay pride movement is the call to engage in pederasty?

A Yes or No answer is all that is called for.

Did you look up the definition of intercrural yet? Without doubt, you, or anyone else, saying that I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to the gay agenda is utterly without merit.

[99percentatheism]

Danmark

Are you even a Christian? It would hardly be appropriate for a non or anti Christian to define what is and what isn't unChristian.

Danmark:

This is purely personal question, followed by an unsupported claim.
It is a common claim among those who say they speak for Christianity.
And it represents an error in logic.

And then you attack me "personally." Here goes:

No one has ever even attempted to meet this challenge: Present a passage of scripture that you think only a Christian can understand; then let's see if I can explain what it means. Of course one of the problems with this is 'who's going to judge?'

Demonstrate how that was a 'personal attack' or withdraw your claim.

I'll withdraw my claim so that you will feel better.

Since you do not you deny that there are millions of people who claim to be Christians, but disagree with you on the issue of homosexuality you have no basis for persisting in your anti gay claims, except that YOUR interpretation is correct, and everyone else is wrong.

There are more millions of Christians that oppose the homosexualization of The Church than there are gay pride activists trying to preach this different Gospel. It is not "my" opinion, it is simply what is in the New Testament and what isn't. There is not one shred of support in the New Testament for gay pride. That is just a fact.

[Danmark]

Danmark

Finally !!!!!!!

One of you come out about pederasty. No ambiguity and no evasion.

'Finally' what? Does demonstrating poor punctuation by adding six superfluous exclamation marks constitute an effective argument? No it does not. You made the absurd and demonstrably inaccurate claim that homosexuality is something that has only recently appeared in human society. You were completely wrong. Whether you call it 'gay pride' or 'homosexuality,' this very human phenomenon is one that has existed in society since our earliest records of our history. Rather than admit you were wrong, you lapse back into your favorite motif: outrage about normal human behavior that has been an accepted part of society for as long as we have been documenting that history.

[KCKID]

I've probably said some against-the-rules stuff towards 99percent. Sorry about that. I sometimes get too heated and forget what I'm doing.

Don't feel alone. Many of us do that from time to time.

[99percentatheism]

Haven

I can't remember. If I was raised and encouraged to believe that same gender sex acts were absolutely "equal" and as natural as normal sex I suppose I would have choices brought to me by that environment. The whole gay agenda thing is a very recent invention in history.

Wait, so you're saying that if you were raised in a home that wasn't virulently homophobic, you'd be gay?

Homophobic is a propaganda tactic. I absolutely enjoy watching it implemented effortlessly as if it will drag the red herring across the issue that there is no such thing as support for gay pride or homosexuality anywhere in the Bible. But it is a fact that children mimic the actions and behaviors of the adults that raise and influence them. That is why KKK kids do KKK stuff.

I was raised in an evangelical Christian home. My parents absolutely did not accept LGBT rights and thought homosexuality was a choice. I wanted to choose to be straight, and tried to be involved in heterosexual relationships. I was still gay, regardless of my desperately wanting to be straight. I hid my orientation from my family and most others for years due to their religious beliefs and my own issues with being gay. When I finally came out, my family accepted me for who I am. That, in my opinion, is the true picture of Christian love, not the disowning that so many "Christian soldiers" give to their gay kids.

Another story? How many children avoided getting involved in homosexuality because their parents were loving and caring enough to influence them to not engage in the behavior? The numbers are probably very high since children are mischievous and inquisitive. I believe the LGBT community seeks out these children within the "Q" part of the labeling process?

How can you even say it's a choice, when you know that it isn't?

There are obviously millions and millions of people that do not choose homosexual encounters. I was taught it was wrong behavior and I acted accordingly.

Semper ubi tersum sub ubi ubique

Thanks Mom.

I am a victim. You have defined my Christian beliefs as hateful and bigoted. And the latest American Christians to be persecuted in a major way are the Benham Brothers. When gay pride proponents demand to put you out of business for your Christian beliefs, that is persecution in any sense of the word.

Any time you tell LGBTQ people that they are inferior, evil, worth less than heterosexuals, and deserve to be tortured in hell for eternity simply for being who we are, you are propagating hatred and bigotry.

And Paul was executed for good reasons then?

The Benham Brothers deserved to be sanctioned for their homophobia in exactly the same way as Donald Sterling was for his racism. There is no place in society for racism and homophobia. One is free to express her or his racist or homophobic opinions, but s/he should expect sanctions from civilized society for her/his hate.

Then you are advocating for the wholesale outlawing of Christianity? Yes or no answer only please.

And you are a non (or anti) Christian.

I am not an anti-Christian (I have no problem with the Christian faith and in fact find it, in many ways, beneficial to society), but I am very much anti-fundamentalist. I oppose any kind of fundamentalism: Christian, Muslim, Hindu, it doesn't matter.

There are fundamental truths one must agree to to be a Christian. There are defining qualities and qualifications for being a Christian PER the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament.

Any form of religion that puts blind and dogmatic obedience to some ancient anthology over the lives and well-beings of real human beings is a pestilence.

STD's are a pestilence.

It is religious fundamentalism that causes LGBTQ youth bullying and suicides,

Put blame where it belongs. Those suicides can be when the person enters the gay life every bit as much as trying to blame them on Christians.

. . . terrorist bombings, violent subjugation of women, and other atrocities perpetrated against the innocent, and it makes me absolutely sick.

You are defining Islam and Muslims.

Fundamentalism is a cancer on the human race.

The early Christians were called the "enemy of the human race" and Justice Scalia just pointed out that the same charge was resurrected by the Supreme Court decision about the gay women in New York. How fascinating. The justification of persecution of Christians being a civil rights issue of our time. And it seems one that people take pride in.

Of course.

[Haven]

99, why are you so obsessed with homosexuality? Aren't there some other "sins" you can spend time fighting?

Also, for what it's worth, I strongly condemn pederasty and don't think the ancient Greek practice had much to do with homosexual orientations. It was a social practice, and was largely about power over other, weaker individuals. In other words, it was essentially rape, and the motivation for it was the same as that for rape -- power, not sex. I doubt the men engaged in that disgusting practice were actually attracted to their victims.

I'm honestly baffled as to why Danmark brought it up as a support for LGBT rights. It really has nothing to do with homosexuality and was simply an ancient form of sexual slavery.

[99percentatheism]

I've probably said some against-the-rules stuff towards 99percent. Sorry about that. I sometimes get too heated and forget what I'm doing.

Don't feel alone. Many of us do that from time to time.

Persecution comes with the territory.

I've become used to it.

And obviously so has the community here. No one will report it if I don't.

[Princess Luna On The Moon]

[Replying to post 1 by 99percentatheism]

Persecution comes with the territory.

I've become used to it.

And obviously so has the community here. No one will report it if I don't.

And now I fully and completely regret apologizing. Arguing with you over homosexuality and religion is becoming most troublesome. It's getting us nowhere.

[Haven]

Homophobic is a propaganda tactic. I absolutely enjoy watching it implemented effortlessly as if it will drag the red herring across the issue that there is no such thing as support for gay pride or homosexuality anywhere in the Bible. But it is a fact that children mimic the actions and behaviors of the adults that raise and influence them. That is why KKK kids do KKK stuff.

Call it what you will, "homophobia," "heterosexism," "straight supremacy" . . . by any name, it is disgusting bigotry.

Also, the anti-gay side is much more like the KKK (an evangelical Christian organization) than the pro-equality side. Think about it.

Another story? How many children avoided getting involved in homosexuality because their parents were loving and caring enough to influence them to not engage in the behavior?

Homosexuality isn't something one can be "involved in." It's an orientation, an attraction. Specifically, it's an attraction to adult members of the same sex. It has nothing to do with any sexual act. One can be a priest in a monastery -- celibate for life -- and have a homosexual orientation, because sexual orientation and sexual acts are two completely different things. How does hateful, abusive parenting prevent this?

The numbers are probably very high since children are mischievous and inquisitive. I believe the LGBT community seeks out these children within the "Q" part of the labeling process?

You're propagating the "gays recruiting children" LIE again. This is totally false, and repeating it here time and time again is verbal abuse and should warrant moderator action.

I guess lying is OK when it's done for Jesus, right?

By the way, the "Q" in LGBTQ refers to both queer (non-heterosexual, but not specifically gay/lesbian or bisexual) and questioning (which can include adults as well as teens) individuals. It's not part of some nefarious plot to recruit kids, and saying that it is is both absurd and libelous.

There are obviously millions and millions of people that do not choose homosexual encounters. I was taught it was wrong behavior and I acted accordingly.

Since you insist on being disingenuous, I will state my question in painstaking clarity: how can one choose to be sexually attracted to members of the same or different sex? This is NOT about sexual acts, it is about attraction. Could you choose to be attracted to women/men?

Semper ubi tersum sub ubi ubique

Are you afraid to say this in English (which, if you did, it would be completely against the rules!!!!)? Why the secrecy? You don't think anyone here speaks Latin and can understand the cruel and vulgar comments you post?